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3500 in 1 jamma board does not boot


Valdy
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Posted (edited)

Hi Guys,

I just bought a 4 player creative arcades 2nd hand and it has a 3500 in 1 jamma games family inside.

After much trouble shooting I'm incline to believe that the 64 SSD may have died.

I was wondering, does anyone have a hard drive image I could download? I already have an ssd to test and hopefully it boots.

Currently I have no vga signal and no sound even tho fan spins and green light with mobo.

Everything is connected correctly inside and tested a different power supply with no luck.

If anyone could please help me I would certainly appreciate it. 

Folder with pictures if you are interested.

https://imgur.com/a/Hma2xzp

UPDATE

This are all the things I've done and unfortunately I have the same result. Jamma board gets a green light, CPU Fan spins, no video signal no audio.

+change power supply

+changed VGA cable

+Changed monitor

+SSD WORKS FINE. plugged it to another pc and can see the content

+CPU WORKS FINE. Replaced it with another working one and it made no difference.

+MOVED RAM TO DIF SLOT.

+Put a new stick of RAM. 

+tried booting w/o any RAM. No error beep. Same result. Green light, cpu fan spins. No video no soun.
+tried booting w/o ssd. No error beep. Same result. Green light, cpu fan spins. No video no soun.
+Had no bios battery. Placed a new cmos 2032 battery. Same result.

Edited by Valdy
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Hey that's great news the disk is ok. Just a few things to note though. The rar is only capturing the one volume, its also writing back to that disk the way your archiving it.

The disk will have 3 partitions, one is likely hidden the other is a shadow copy partition, so it's better if you image the entire ssd into an ISO or similar format (ie. TIB would be the format if you image the whole drive with acronis.)

By capturing the whole disk as an image (which you can exclude empty space from the capture so it wont be 64gb in the end) you will have a file you could write back to any other disk and those next disks will be bootable.

If you were to only re-extract your archive to some new disk, it wont boot since it doesnt capture any of the bootable or hidden stuff (the partitions mentioned earlier, and the boot sector, master boot record, etc)

 

 

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Regarding the troubleshooting, it may be worth trying another power supply. these games familiy are meant to modified to automatically power the PC components up when power is supplied at the wall. (that's how mine works at least tho mine is a much older version)

Instead of a torrent, a google drive link might be easier to sort out, tho uploading a solid 12 or so gb can take a while.

about the plug, it should be disconnectable without a problem, they should have a latch on one side, so you know which way they plug back together.

 connector1.png.c93d4a5a539111425edba183402e8571.pngconnector2.png.a626a1fd443623caf04683d57a55ad27.png

 

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Posted (edited)
14 minutes ago, qwertylesh said:

Regarding the troubleshooting, it may be worth trying another power supply. these games familiy are meant to modified to automatically power the PC components up when power is supplied at the wall. (that's how mine works at least tho mine is a much older version)

Instead of a torrent, a google drive link might be easier to sort out, tho uploading a solid 12 or so gb can take a while.

about the plug, it should be disconnectable without a problem, they should have a latch on one side, so you know which way they plug back together.

 connector1.png.c93d4a5a539111425edba183402e8571.pngconnector2.png.a626a1fd443623caf04683d57a55ad27.png

 

Yes,

I did u nplug the controlers to move the arcade through the door but my question was what happens when I pull those cables from inside that white cube. They don't looks plug and play with a i pac 2.

I will have to research and teach myself how to do create a tib from a drive.

I do have an 850 power supply and plugged everything to it before I even posted here. One thing I did not do, was power the ssd via the other power supply. 

The wirying is confusing so im unsure what powers what. I will check with the power supply again as soon as I figure out this TIB stuff.

Edited by Valdy
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Welp.

I moved the ssd back to the arcade and changed power supplies.

I connected the pcb and also the ssd to the sata out oof the  power supply.

I got the same result. Is like there's no power to the pcb and I'm not sure what's going on.

I've ordered something off amazon to connect an ssd via usb so that I can connect it to my main pc rather than on an old win 7 where many programs don't run and that way I will try cloning the drive.

I know the solution is probably staring at my face and I just can't figure it out. 

The're is another power supply or battery glued to the wall for volts but I haven't the slightest clue how to work on that either. 

The cpu arrives also soon. that will probably be my last attempt before I move to plan b and use it with a pi. 

Just so frustrated.

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I'll take a closer look at mine, to determine what is triggering the power on switch. From memory i thought the motherboard conenctor pw_sw pins were not in use and that it was powering up from the 24 pin ATX. but I'll double check mine, we can compare mine to yours and figure out why the PC mobo isnt firing up for you. 

I know it can be frustrating I really hope you revive the old games family, its a good platform imo, but steep learning curve

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Posted (edited)

So, mines designed when the arcade unit is plugged to the wall, the system turns on automatically after about 2 seconds time. if its plugged in and soft-shutdown, the power needs to be turned off to the unit and back on again for the PC side to fire back up.

 

So when its plugged to wall power, and the killswitch on the back of my Arcade is on - power gets delivered to an built in a powerboard which runs a stepdown transformer for the screen and also to the PC PSU.  PSU's kill switch is always on. - A 20 pin extender runs from the PSU's 24pin ATX cable into the PC motherboard, breaking out from that 20pin extender are a few things:

- a 12v molex power going directly to my hdd.

- a +5v two wire line that goes into a +5v port on the Jamma board

- a green line that also goes from the 20pin ATX extender to the PS/2 wiring on the Jamma board (this same PS/2 connector also solders to the PS2 ports on the underside of the PC motherboard.

image.thumb.png.7e6d9ca1e9bcc16adb12afd80859afda.png

 

 

The PW_SW is in use on the motherboard, and it appears that this plus another few pins from the motherboard run to a connector on the underside of the Jamma PCB right in the corner near the Jamma connector.

image.thumb.png.bb49ceb5500bcc751e5fa61250a778eb.png

When the power goes to the PSU > through the ATX extender > it's also sending some standby power to the Jamma PCB (5v and PS/2 lines) the jamma PCB is then triggering the motherboard PW_SW pins, telling the PC motherboard to power up.

 

So is your PC motherboard PW_SW and CMOS wired and glued in like mine? Does your PC motherboard use a 20pin ATX extender and does it tap into 5V and PS/2 ?

If the Jamma PCB on yours is controlling your PC's PW_SW pin, you can short those top view ("PWR") pins to issue a soft-poweron to the PC motherboard.

 

 I hope this helps

Edited by qwertylesh
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Posted (edited)
On 08/07/2022 at 1:40 AM, qwertylesh said:

So, mines designed when the arcade unit is plugged to the wall, the system turns on automatically after about 2 seconds time. if its plugged in and soft-shutdown, the power needs to be turned off to the unit and back on again for the PC side to fire back up.

 

So when its plugged to wall power, and the killswitch on the back of my Arcade is on - power gets delivered to an built in a powerboard which runs a stepdown transformer for the screen and also to the PC PSU.  PSU's kill switch is always on. - A 20 pin extender runs from the PSU's 24pin ATX cable into the PC motherboard, breaking out from that 20pin extender are a few things:

- a 12v molex power going directly to my hdd.

- a +5v two wire line that goes into a +5v port on the Jamma board

- a green line that also goes from the 20pin ATX extender to the PS/2 wiring on the Jamma board (this same PS/2 connector also solders to the PS2 ports on the underside of the PC motherboard.

image.thumb.png.7e6d9ca1e9bcc16adb12afd80859afda.png

 

 

The PW_SW is in use on the motherboard, and it appears that this plus another few pins from the motherboard run to a connector on the underside of the Jamma PCB right in the corner near the Jamma connector.

image.thumb.png.bb49ceb5500bcc751e5fa61250a778eb.png

When the power goes to the PSU > through the ATX extender > it's also sending some standby power to the Jamma PCB (5v and PS/2 lines) the jamma PCB is then triggering the motherboard PW_SW pins, telling the PC motherboard to power up.

 

So is your PC motherboard PW_SW and CMOS wired and glued in like mine? Does your PC motherboard use a 20pin ATX extender and does it tap into 5V and PS/2 ?

If the Jamma PCB on yours is controlling your PC's PW_SW pin, you can short those top view ("PWR") pins to issue a soft-poweron to the PC motherboard.

 

 I hope this helps

Here are some pictures of the connections. Again, I'm not sure what I'm looking at. I tried to follow what you were saying and read it over and over trying to make sense of it but I'm still lost in the sauce.

The mobo connects to the PSU on two cables. 

image.thumb.png.34750846f37ee4eb2f8c2fa54aabc157.png

I'm waiting for the cpu to arrive so that I can take it out and see if that is what is keeping it from booting at all. 

There isnt a single cable that is loose or anything so I don't know what else it could be.

Some stuff are glued and other's are not. 

Also, Acronis was not working for me. kept saying that i had the wrong version so I used Macrium reflect but I'm not sure if it did the job. See the ss below.

 

image.thumb.png.332c844cd902f8a1002e6a566a9eb448.png

20220709_193339.jpg

20220709_193127.jpg

20220709_193308.jpg

20220709_193314.jpg

20220709_193327.jpg

20220709_193332.jpg

image.png

Edited by Valdy
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Hey, acronis usually supports a live environment through USB boot media, which tends to work the best. It seems like the ssd only had 2 partitions? I would have expected it to have three, the several images I've got have a C, D and one without a letter called RXC_Service. Macrium image file screenshot looks like it should be right as long as the ssd really does only have two partitions, and since its backed up with intelligent sector copy mode, it should mean if you restored to another disk, that one should boot (same as cloning).

I hope you backed the image up to a separate disk, than the arcades disk.

 

From the images you shared of the games family hardware, it all looks right, I can see the pins going to pw_sw and also the 5v and ps2 wiring, it all looks to be correct, just some of the jamma pcb layout is slightly different to mine.

Its peculiar that the pc components don't power up, if the cpu is cooked that may be the cause, but chances are greater that the pc motherboard is the problem. (I dont see any bulging capacitors in the photos tho, so that's a good sign)

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, qwertylesh said:

Hey, acronis usually supports a live environment through USB boot media, which tends to work the best. It seems like the ssd only had 2 partitions? I would have expected it to have three, the several images I've got have a C, D and one without a letter called RXC_Service. Macrium image file screenshot looks like it should be right as long as the ssd really does only have two partitions, and since its backed up with intelligent sector copy mode, it should mean if you restored to another disk, that one should boot (same as cloning).

I hope you backed the image up to a separate disk, than the arcades disk.

 

From the images you shared of the games family hardware, it all looks right, I can see the pins going to pw_sw and also the 5v and ps2 wiring, it all looks to be correct, just some of the jamma pcb layout is slightly different to mine.

Its peculiar that the pc components don't power up, if the cpu is cooked that may be the cause, but chances are greater that the pc motherboard is the problem. (I dont see any bulging capacitors in the photos tho, so that's a good sign)

 

so.. i changed the cpu and...  same result. X_X

I managed to change the cpu w/o disconnecting anything so that sped up the process. Unfortunately, too no avail.

What I don't understand is, if it is a power issue, using a different psu didn't help so I'm at a loss as what the fix could be. I feel this should at least boot to bios and crash or something. 

Creative arcades quoted me $400 for a new pcu with cpu and ram and everything on that pcb board new but, i still don't know if that's the issue or not.

 

20220711_193431.jpg

 

 

Edited by Valdy
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Ahh man that sucks. 😞

All of the wires that run to the jamma pcb are unpluggable? if they are, you can disconnect the pc motherboard from it completely(but gently those gray cables are a bit flimsy), and then you could try powering up the pc platform like any other computer, running the psu directly to the 24 + 4 atx, and shorting the pw_sw switch. That way youll know if the pc parts are dead or whether its actually some problem with the jamma pcb.

besides that last resort attempt, i don't think there's much you can do, if you did try it and the pc wont power up when separated from the jamma pcb, then you could go the route of resoldering all of the connectors to another compatible motherboard and firing it up (under the assumption that the jamma pcb is fine), but if the PC motherboard did fire up in this test it would confirm that the jamma pcb might be broken.

 

 

 

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59 minutes ago, qwertylesh said:

Ahh man that sucks. 😞

All of the wires that run to the jamma pcb are unpluggable? if they are, you can disconnect the pc motherboard from it completely(but gently those gray cables are a bit flimsy), and then you could try powering up the pc platform like any other computer, running the psu directly to the 24 + 4 atx, and shorting the pw_sw switch. That way youll know if the pc parts are dead or whether its actually some problem with the jamma pcb.

besides that last resort attempt, i don't think there's much you can do, if you did try it and the pc wont power up when separated from the jamma pcb, then you could go the route of resoldering all of the connectors to another compatible motherboard and firing it up (under the assumption that the jamma pcb is fine), but if the PC motherboard did fire up in this test it would confirm that the jamma pcb might be broken.

 

 

 

yeah i think that's the limit of my capabilities. 

I did break the silicon on the ram and moved it to another slot. No dice =(

I hope I don't electrocute myself but the only thing left is to start messing with volts.

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On 04/07/2022 at 5:31 PM, Davefjedi said:

Dosent sound like hard drive 

if the machine is not even booting to post (writing on the screen) it could be ram or cpu issue 

 

Changed both the CPU and a the RAM.

Same result.

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On 05/07/2022 at 9:18 AM, Gemini2544 said:

Has the Bios battery gone flat, On machines with one a flat 3 volt lithium can cause booting havoc.

 

Hi, just wondering if you did try changing the bios battery or at least measuring its Voltage? There were definitely some P4 motherboards which would not proceed to post if the battery is flat - no video output at all so worth checking.

Otherwise if you have a working power supply, CPU and RAM but no video your MB is faulty. It should show p.o.s.t even with no drives connected.

Hope that helps, regards John.

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ontop of that, i was advising off the premise that your board is not powering on at all (no cpu heatsink fan spinning) or anything. which is why i was saying you'd probably haveto try pc / jamma boards seperated, so you can press pw_sw with the pc board isolated, to really know if the mainboard is faulty.

the grey cables that pair the boards together that are soldered to the motherboard should disconnect on the jamma side, you'd have to label and photograph everything, to reconnect it back correctly later.

if fans are spinning tho and its soft powering with no post, then thats another matter, that'll be just as jbtech outlines.

Edited by qwertylesh
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3 hours ago, jbtech said:

Hi, just wondering if you did try changing the bios battery or at least measuring its Voltage? There were definitely some P4 motherboards which would not proceed to post if the battery is flat - no video output at all so worth checking.

Otherwise if you have a working power supply, CPU and RAM but no video your MB is faulty. It should show p.o.s.t even with no drives connected.

Hope that helps, regards John.

I think that's the last thing I could try and do. I'm not able to check it's voltage but I could find out what battery this mother board uses, buy one, and change it for a final hoorah!

45 minutes ago, qwertylesh said:

ontop of that, i was advising off the premise that your board is not powering on at all (no cpu heatsink fan spinning) or anything. which is why i was saying you'd probably haveto try pc / jamma boards seperated, so you can press pw_sw with the pc board isolated, to really know if the mainboard is faulty.

the grey cables that pair the boards together that are soldered to the motherboard should disconnect on the jamma side, you'd have to label and photograph everything, to reconnect it back correctly later.

if fans are spinning tho and its soft powering with no post, then thats another matter, that'll be just as jbtech outlines.

I got you. I appreciate you looking out. Yeah the cpu fan spins and there is electricity on the mobo. The only think I'm able to do on comand is, if I unplug power to the mobo the fan doesn't spin.

I will start my research on what bios battery I need and how to change it tomorrow morning. Every time I go down the damn arcade to tweak it I lose flesh due to all the damn sharp corners. You'd think I'm changing the blades on a lawn mower lol.

Thanks for the replies, I appreciate it. 

 

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Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, jbtech said:

Yep, usually a CR2032

i cant believe it. It had no battery. I had a brand new one and changed it. I STILL get no boot. WTF. it just refuses to boot.

The same exact result. 

Edited by Valdy
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oh it didnt have a cr2032!

it's sounding like that motherboard is toast. if you can source an equivalent that has ps/2 you could solder over the ps/2 cable, see what else might be soldered directly to the board, i think most things are just glued but some of the ps/2 pins could be soldered on the underside. 

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Sorry to hear the bios battery didn't get it working, was worth a try though. Just to be clear, the battery should be fitted with the writing + side facing out and the smaller - side facing inward.

If the CPU fan runs continuously the motherboard does seem to be ON from power up and not in standby but if you can find the reset switch or power switch pins on the mb 'front panel' connector you could try touching the relevant pins together momentarily with a wire to reset  the CPU or cycle the standby state, just to see if any change. If it does power on and go into setup mode by any chance the default power-on status can be set to 'ON" using a keyboard and once saved should be retained now the new bios battery is present..

Otherwise, if it still won't run p.o.s.t, connecting a little speaker (borrowed from another PC maybe) to the SPK pins on the front panel connector may reveal something with a beep error code as per the previous suggestions but I think the MB is probably faulty either way.

Regards, John.

Edited by jbtech
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Posted (edited)
21 hours ago, qwertylesh said:

oh it didnt have a cr2032!

it's sounding like that motherboard is toast. if you can source an equivalent that has ps/2 you could solder over the ps/2 cable, see what else might be soldered directly to the board, i think most things are just glued but some of the ps/2 pins could be soldered on the underside. 

I will buy a new mobo and then try moving everything.

21 hours ago, jbtech said:

Sorry to hear the bios battery didn't get it working, was worth a try though. Just to be clear, the battery should be fitted with the writing + side facing out and the smaller - side facing inward.

If the CPU fan runs continuously the motherboard does seem to be ON from power up and not in standby but if you can find the reset switch or power switch pins on the mb 'front panel' connector you could try touching the relevant pins together momentarily with a wire to reset  the CPU or cycle the standby state, just to see if any change. If it does power on and go into setup mode by any chance the default power-on status can be set to 'ON" using a keyboard and once saved should be retained now the new bios battery is present..

Otherwise, if it still won't run p.o.s.t, connecting a little speaker (borrowed from another PC maybe) to the SPK pins on the front panel connector may reveal something with a beep error code as per the previous suggestions but I think the MB is probably faulty either way.

Regards, John.

Yep. I saw a video about changing the bios battery. 

I guess is time to buy a new cheap mobo and take it from there.

Question I have now is,

Does the mobo have to be the exact same or can i get by with any  LGA775 motherboard?

Edited by Valdy
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You should find that most matx of the era fit the criteria. with two caveats:

1 -determine and stick to a LGA775 mobo has the same common integrated chipset of the existing mobo (i.e, intel/via/nvidia etc - northbridge & standard sata controller south bridge) - The tl;dr is big difference in chipsets is a hassle due to how unique the arcade winOS's are. ( Its very likely to be intel based. ) Long winded explainer for the basis of point 1 below, feel free to ignore it.

 

2 - Ensure the new one has PS/2 output. - based on that the jamma board is wired into it, I wouldn't be confident the functionality you'd lose by not integrating the ps/2 isn't essential, so just got with one that has it.

 

------

point 1 extended explainer: This is in consideration of the customized OS's driver ability.  i.e, mobo transplant from a Windows that had say a Intel based HAL OS install onto say a VIA chipset most often bsod's on boot and not an easy fix given the games family winOS has a customized shell process. Further to that; in-place repair installation, meaning you'd have to extract the Key from the SOFTWARE sam hive externally first and other fun time wasting workarounds needed, then re-import registry modifications to the OS shell (this is where it gets into hassle territory, since while the mamep frontend is very customizable, its structured like a pain in the ass with the volume shadows and shit  - if it's anything like my ones)

Edited by qwertylesh
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