C120 coin installation in SS Pinball machine

[Muzac]

Hi again,

I’m continuing my coin mech journey and now that I’ve found one I’m unsure what to do next! I’ve installed analog ones before but this electronic mech has got me stumped.

Basically I’ve bought a C120 coin mech and after a bit of re-modelling have managed to successfully fit it into the coin door of my Williams Cyclone. It is “pinball programmed” for $2, $1 and 20c.

I was given a ribbon cable with it but I really have no idea how to wire it up to power it and recognise the different denominations etc.

I’m wondering if I need a credit board or the like?

Any help would be great. Cheers!

 

[ocyen]

Mechanical coin mechanisms were wired into the switch matrix directly. An electronic mech like yours will need power and a way to interface with the CPU. So, you'll need an interface (credit) board. 

[Muzac]

15 hours ago, ocyen said:

Mechanical coin mechanisms were wired into the switch matrix directly. An electronic mech like yours will need power and a way to interface with the CPU. So, you'll need an interface (credit) board. 

Thanks  @ocyenmy good man! I had a feeling there was a missing piece to the puzzle. I’ll follow that logic and see if I can find one. Cheers!

 

[Muzac]

Hi again peeps,

I’m having quite a difficult time finding a credit board, they aren’t readily available (even from Marco!).

I found this though, it apparently works with my C120 coin mech but can anyone advise if it will be compatible with the Williams System 11B board set?

https://www.arcade-game-sales.com/arcade-parts/credit-boards-coin-interface-pcbs/arcade-credit-board-universal-mk4e/16570-2.html

Cheers! 

[Autosteve]

These are what we used for everything including pinballs. Anyone intersted in how to wire and use these things, I would suggest bookmarking this as his data is outstanding as you would expect considering he designed it all and made better credit boards than those used originally in machines like TMNT.

The industry owes this guy a lot for what he did regarding collecting coins in amusement machines. Glad to see he still does it.

http://www.sunrisemicro.com.au/

Highly recommended from someone that wired 100s of his products and his an Aussie to boot.

[Muzac]

On 22/11/2021 at 12:52 AM, Autosteve said:

These are what we used for everything including pinballs. Anyone intersted in how to wire and use these things, I would suggest bookmarking this as his data is outstanding as you would expect considering he designed it all and made better credit boards than those used originally in machines like TMNT.

The industry owes this guy a lot for what he did regarding collecting coins in amusement machines. Glad to see he still does it.

http://www.sunrisemicro.com.au/

Highly recommended from someone that wired 100s of his products and his an Aussie to boot.

You are a legend @Autosteve really appreciate the tip. I’ve contacted them and will update this thread when I get a response. Cheers!

[Autosteve]

37 minutes ago, Muzac said:

You are a legend @Autosteve really appreciate the tip. I’ve contacted them and will update this thread when I get a response. Cheers!

Nigel worked at LAI before going out on his own I believe. He designs some great credit boards and improved a hell of a lot of poor designs by others to. Do me a favour and ask him if he started at Goddards. There was a board tech there that was named Nigel but he looks younger than that time line would allow but you never know. If he did, that was where I first met him otherwise it was LAI.

That site I linked to has pretty much all the credit boards found in LAI machines, how to use the and wire them. The AMF boards he made are virtually the same but except tokens as well.

 

[Muzac]

Hey again,

Finally back on this (crazy time of year right!).

Primarily, yes @Autosteve Nigel from Sunrise Micro did work at Goddards. He apparently started there in 1978. 🙂

Thanks again mate, I’ve received Universal Credit Board Mk4e and a 44 pin edge connector from Sunrise.

 

Ok, the diagram below shows me what I’m supposed to do, so if I understand this correctly…

- The ribbon cable runs from the coin mech to the credit board (with 44 pin edge connector attached)

- The white/blue cable is attached to pin 17 & the green/brown cable to pin 18 on the pin edge connector.

- A diode is soldered between pins 16 and 17

- 12volt power is obtained from the power supply PCB connector (3P6 pin 6 - Grey/white wire)) and connected to pins 19 and 20

- Ground is also obtained from the power supply PCB connector (3P6 -  black wire) and connected to pins 1, 21 and 22. (?)

- I don’t think I need a coin meter and I’ll possibly attach the service credit switch

 

When it comes to tapping into the feed of the green/ brown cable etc how exactly do I do this? The loom is housed in a Molex plug so where on the cable do I tap into the feed? Same for the 12V feed, I understand where it comes from but not the best way to attach to the power supply PCB connector?

Any help would be great! Cheers. 

[Autosteve]

Thanks for asking Nigel. When I started in this industry straight after school, he was one of 3 techs that did nothing but board work. He worked with a guy called Ali and good only knows the other guy.

As for the diagram, you are reading it correct and you don't need a coin meter if you don't want one.

As for the splicing the wires you do exactly that unless you want to repin the wire inserting two wires in the pin and putting that pin back in the nearest convenient plug.

Splicing is how they did it. Cut the wire you need where you want your new wire coming from, Slide a suitable piece of heatshrink...(Jaycar).... over one of the ends. Strip about 10mm off the insulation exposing the bare wire on all three wires. The two original wires, twist the bare wires end on end. Your new wire twist it over the top of them forming a Y shape and solder...( don't let your heatshrink get to close ). Once cooled pull on all three wires to test for strength and then slide the heatshrink over the solder joint. Heat and it will shrink onto the joint insulating it. Done, exactly like original, (that LAI did that is).

Ow thought I better mention about the coin meter, remember you are using multiple coin types of value. That mechanical meter on that board counts 10c denominations so 20 cents- 2 clicks of the meter, $1- 10 clicks etc. It does make coin collects easier if you are looking at operating the machine but if not, I wouldn't bother.

Pretty sure the denomination is settable on the Sunrise board but it could be written on the chip and not able to alter. Ours where all 10c but we used a lot of Sunrise stuff and maybe the chip was programmed that way for our use. I really can't remember.

Edited December 13, 2021 by Autosteve

[Muzac]

On 14/12/21 at 12:47 AM, Autosteve said:

Thanks for asking Nigel. When I started in this industry straight after school, he was one of 3 techs that did nothing but board work. He worked with a guy called Ali and good only knows the other guy.

As for the diagram, you are reading it correct and you don't need a coin meter if you don't want one.

As for the splicing the wires you do exactly that unless you want to repin the wire inserting two wires in the pin and putting that pin back in the nearest convenient plug.

Splicing is how they did it. Cut the wire you need where you want your new wire coming from, Slide a suitable piece of heatshrink...(Jaycar).... over one of the ends. Strip about 10mm off the insulation exposing the bare wire on all three wires. The two original wires, twist the bare wires end on end. Your new wire twist it over the top of them forming a Y shape and solder...( don't let your heatshrink get to close ). Once cooled pull on all three wires to test for strength and then slide the heatshrink over the solder joint. Heat and it will shrink onto the joint insulating it. Done, exactly like original, (that LAI did that is).

Ow thought I better mention about the coin meter, remember you are using multiple coin types of value. That mechanical meter on that board counts 10c denominations so 20 cents- 2 clicks of the meter, $1- 10 clicks etc. It does make coin collects easier if you are looking at operating the machine but if not, I wouldn't bother.

Pretty sure the denomination is settable on the Sunrise board but it could be written on the chip and not able to alter. Ours where all 10c but we used a lot of Sunrise stuff and maybe the chip was programmed that way for our use. I really can't remember.

This is what I love about the amazing AA community, straight up, informative and direct information. I really needed this to progress forward and not destroy my beloved machine. Can’t thank you enough @Autosteve your assistance is really appreciated and your service to the AA community at large is to be commended. You.tha.man.🙌

I had a really difficult time finding this info anywhere so I’ll post some final results/pics when I get this all sorted. Hopefully it’ll help more operators to get classic games out in the wild! 😀

[Muzac]

Hi good people,

Ok, finally put all the bits together but the coin mech isn’t working at all! 😩 Basically you put a coin in and it rejects it, tried $2, $1 and 20c.

I ‘think’ I’ve done everything correctly:

PIC 1: I spliced wires to pick up 12volt (3J6 pin 3) ground (3J6 pin 11) from the power supply in the backbox 

PIC 2:  Soldered all the wires to the pin connector in what I think is the correct way.

For reference: 

White wire - spliced from 12volt 

Black wire - spliced from ground

Blue wire - spliced from white/blue near Molex coin door connector

Green wire - spliced from green/brown near Molex coin door connector 

(Apologies for the shabby electrical tape over the joins @Autosteve. It looks crap and bothers me but I don’t have large heat shrink to fit over the three way join. I managed to do it near the coin door but my 12volt and ground wires are quite thick.)

PIC 3: In regards to the pin connector, there are two sets of pins for the 22 positions (so essentially 44). I soldered the wires onto what I thought was the component side, do they need to be attached to both?

Also, the instructions tell you to set the pinball pricing to 1 coin 1 game. In the Cyclone adjustments I used the ‘custom coin’ setting to achieve this. I am still unsure how to set the credit board though. From what I can gather dip switches 1-3 are set to 20c, $1 & $2 respectively. So do I simply have them all on? I tried a number of combinations but nothing worked.

This might be a dumb question also but I’m I’m assuming the coin mech gets power from the credit board through the ribbon cable? It appears to be without power…..

Any further help would be very much appreciated! Z 🙏 

[Autosteve]

If the coin mech is rejecting all coins the fault lies in either the coin mech not getting 12 volts correctly or the coin mech itself is faulty.

When was the last time you saw that cion mech except coins?. The mech can loose what coins it will take and it may need reprogramming with a programmer.

[Muzac]

7 hours ago, Autosteve said:

If the coin mech is rejecting all coins the fault lies in either the coin mech not getting 12 volts correctly or the coin mech itself is faulty.

When was the last time you saw that cion mech except coins?. The mech can loose what coins it will take and it may need reprogramming with a programmer.

Hi again, 

Ok, so it sounds like I have the wiring correct then?

I received it from Highway Entertainment in early Nov and it was supposed to be ‘pinball programmed’ when I bought it. 

how do I test that it’s receiving 12volt? 

[Autosteve]

35 minutes ago, Muzac said:

 

 

how do I test that it’s receiving 12volt? 

Look at the diagram of the board, ( or post a picture of it if you can't read diagrams), and see where the 12 volt enters the board and follow the trace to the first component that is soldered to it. that solder joint is where you put your red test lead on your multimeter.

Do exactly the same proceedure with the ground wire and black multimeter lead.

If your worried the tip of the test leads slipping while your trying to measure, grab a needle and heatshrink or tape it to the test lead probes. Now they won't slip and you may need them if you haven't got 12 volts and you need to check the ribbon cable where you lightly prick the side of the ribbon to check for breaks in it.

[Muzac]

Thanks my good man, good advice with the needle too.

I’m ‘ok’ at reading diagrams so I’ve posted it below. 😬

From what you said does that mean diode D1 (red circle) is the solder joint where I put the red test lead?

As far as the black lead for ground, is it C1 (green circle) or the other component with the blue circle? Apologies I am not sure what either of them are….

[Autosteve]

1 hour ago, Muzac said:

From what you said does that mean diode D1 (red circle) is the solder joint where I put the red test lead?

As far as the black lead for ground, is it C1 (green circle) or the other component with the blue circle? Apologies I am not sure what either of them are….

 

Yep perfect. Just make sure you check the side of those components closest to where it enters the board and with your brand new needle tipped test leads😁, you can check from either board side if you want. Solder pad on solderside or component lead, parts side.

Have you got any data on the coin mech your using?. We always had NRIs that look near identical in shape to the one you are using. Lets just check it is set up correctly if you do have the required 12 volts.

Not a worry, here is the C120 owners manual.......

https://media.recreativas.org/manuales/201901/c120-coin-controls-international-manual-en.pdf

Been looking at the Cyclone diagram, the sunrise diagram and the C120 diagram and this install can be tied up quite a lot where all the connections are at and around the tilt board but lets get it working first.

Edited January 10, 2022 by Autosteve

[Muzac]

Back to it!
Excuse the delay, school holidays are sucking up all my time!

Thanks for looking into it @Autosteve and posting the link to the C120 manual, I had it in PDF form and was trying to figure out how to attach it!

Ok, so I tested the 12volt feed as you suggested putting the red lead on the circled red solder joint (diode D1) and the black lead on circled black solder joint (capacitor C1) and got a reading of 11.85volts. (Pic 1)

Is that close enough or troublesome because it’s a bit low?

Also after browsing the C120 manual again, I thought I maybe the inhibitor DIP switches were set to ‘inhibit’ all coins. Opening the coin mech cover however revealed that they appear to be properly set to allow all coin types (red circle pic 2).

Do you know what the other four DIP switches are for? (blue circle pic 2) Doesn’t seem to reference them in the manual…. 
 

Cheers! Z 

 

Edited January 13, 2022 by Muzac

[Gemini2544]

Seems very odd that all of the DIP SW's are set to the OFF position.

[Muzac]

Yes, it’s a bit counter intuitive! 
 

They are inhibitor switches that inhibit coins when they are on, so in theory they should be off to allow coins to register.

In saying that I’m still not sure what the second lot of four are for though. They aren’t mentioned in the manual.

The whole thing is still not registering though, so I might try flicking some of them anyway….

 

Edited January 18, 2022 by Muzac

[Autosteve]

Set the dips on Nigel's board as follows...

1-on

2-on

3-off

4-off

5-off

6-on

7-off

8-off

1 and 8 tell the board it is for a pinball, 2-6 set the coin pricing to $1-1play / $2-2plays............................Yours isn't set in your picture.

Nigels board also has a green LED on it. This should be on whenever the board is powered up.

Now look at his "Example of connection to a Williams Pinball" ........  Page 4 of 4 in his manual and note he uses solderside only connections as indicated in the diagram with an "S" after each number.

Just check you have ground going to pin 1s and pin 21s and or pin 22s.....               21s and 22s I'm suspecting are connected on the board but just confirm this,

Also confirm pin 19s and pin 20s for 12volts.

Pin 17s goes to the white and blue wire in the williams harness

Pin 18s goes to the green and brown wire in the williams harness

I wouldn't have thought that being as 17s is NC and 18s being NO on the relay but lets just try exactly as he says as the way you have it wired on the component side of the edge connector was never going to work at least not will configured as a pinball.

Your ribbon cable will also only work if you use the 2nd ribbon cable port as solderside connections when configured this way use this port only.

Make sure pin 16s where your diode will go is the correct way around but also when the board is configured this way it is actually ground as the pin 16s connects to pin 6 on the ribbon cable and that is "Inhibit All Coins" on the C120 and is active high, ( this must be ground to accept any coins)

Confirm this when Nigel's board has the dips set correctly and you've altered it's wiring on the edge connector.

Your dips on the C120 should be set as follows..

The 4 bank

1-on

2-off

The bank of 6 dips

1-off

2-off

3-on

4-on

5-on

6-off

See how that goes but 1st, make sure that LED on Nigels board is on. No on= no power to anything.

[Muzac]

Excellent info thanks again @Autosteve. 👊

Ok, as suggested above I have switched the wires to the solder side of the pin connector  (🤦‍♂️) and I’ve re-checked the locations according to the diagram. (Just a note that solder joins look a bit messy as I didn’t bother removing the solder from the parts side pins). The diode should have it’s polarity correct as per the diagram with the banded side/cathode soldered to 16s and the non-banded/anode soldered to 17s.

I’ve set all the DIP switches as suggested, in regards to the four bank on the C120:

On 19/1/22 at 2:25 AM, Autosteve said:

The 4 bank

1-on

2-off

should switches 3 and 4 also be off?

On 19/1/22 at 2:25 AM, Autosteve said:

See how that goes but 1st, make sure that LED on Nigels board is on. No on= no power to anything.

So here’s the sticking point dammit, the LED (which I noticed hasn’t been illuminated at all!) isn’t working. So there’s no power😩

I’m assuming the 12volt feed powers it and as per the diagram I’ve spliced from power supply PCB connector (3P6 pin 6 - Grey/white wire)) and connected to pins 19 and 20. 
 

I’ve attached a pic of my wiring (excuse my ‘fat finger’ script!) what the hell am I doing wrong?? 

 

[Autosteve]

27 minutes ago, Muzac said:

So here’s the sticking point dammit, the LED (which I noticed hasn’t been illuminated at all!) isn’t working. So there’s no power😩

I’m assuming the 12volt feed powers it and as per the diagram I’ve spliced from power supply PCB connector (3P6 pin 6 - Grey/white wire)) and connected to pins 19 and 20. 
 

I’ve attached a pic of my wiring (excuse my ‘fat finger’ script!) what the hell am I doing wrong?? 

 

Check you wires in the head actually have 12 volts on them. Check where they splice for 12 volts and then check on the edge connector if you have 12 volts.

Gotta get that LED lite.

Remember I said you could tidy this up earlier?.

This is what I meant but I would prefer you to get it working prior to attempting this.

Wire a 12 volt regulator, (like a LM7812), onto the coin door lockout coil and grab your 12 volts from there. Won't work on a Bally with 49 volts but a Williams with 28vDC driving the lockout coil, well within tolerance of a 12volt regulator rated at 38volts max.

The coin lockout coin gets power when ever the credits aren't maxed on the machine and then it drops out so the customer isn't ripped off and his coin is returned......perfect for your application as well I would think.

........Priority........Get the LED lite

Edited January 23, 2022 by Autosteve

[Muzac]

Hi again,

Finally got Back to it! Just got back from a caravan jaunt with the fam.

Ok, I’ve tested the 12volt feed from the connector in the backbox, through the splices and right up to the pin connectors. All read around 12.2v.

Still no illuminated LED. ☹️ Faulty credit board perhaps?

On 23/1/2022 at 10:57 PM, Autosteve said:

Wire a 12 volt regulator, (like a LM7812), onto the coin door lockout coil and grab your 12 volts from there. Won't work on a Bally with 49 volts but a Williams with 28vDC driving the lockout coil, well within tolerance of a 12volt regulator rated at 38volts max.

A couple of questions about this please:

So are you basically saying I should now get the 12volt feed from the lockout coil instead of the backbox connector?

Also, I can’t seem to find a lockout coil on my coin door? There only appears to be a credit switch  I’ve attached a pic.  FYI also (not sure if it’s related) by my coin door globes don’t work even though I’d previously replaced them with LED’s…

Thanks again, Z.

 

[Muzac]

Hi again,

Ok, the plot thickens….🤔

I thought I’d reach out to Nigel from Sunrise Micro to see if he had any insight into testing the board etc.

This was his response re the LED:

The LED is a RESET indicator. Normally the LED is off.  It will flash briefly at power-on. It flashes if the anti-cheat spark reset is triggered, if it is in use.

From my observation it doesn’t do anything when it starts up but it does flash when the machine is turned off. Not so sure if that’s a sign of power reaching the board or not….

 

He also gave me a way of testing the board that involves wiring up the service switch and questioned the coin mech itself. I’ll aim to do this ASAP:

Connect a push button switch as per pin 3 solder side, service switch (or just touch wires together). Every time the contacts close the board will give one credit. If you get a credit on the machine this rules out any fundamental problem with the board or with the board to machine connections.

Next you need to look at the coin mech. Do you have another machine with a credit board installed in which you can verify that the coin mech and ribbon cable is working and that the coin mech is programmed to match a credit board?

 

[Gemini2544]

First obvious thing is, If your seeing the LED flash on turn off, then the power has to be there.

[Autosteve]

On 29/01/2022 at 1:41 AM, Muzac said:

Ok, I’ve tested the 12volt feed from the connector in the backbox, through the splices and right up to the pin connectors. All read around 12.2v.

 

So are you basically saying I should now get the 12volt feed from the lockout coil instead of the backbox connector?

Also, I can’t seem to find a lockout coil on my coin door? There only appears to be a credit switch  I’ve attached a pic.  FYI also (not sure if it’s related) by my coin door globes don’t work even though I’d previously replaced them with LED’s…

 

 

 

As long as you have 12volts or near enough it should be good. The coin lockout alternative 12volt supply idea is solely to tidy up the install by not having wires going all the way back to the backbox.

Beside the tilt board there should be a white 12 pin plug I think it is. That plug goes on to the coin door. Check the harness from that plug to the coin door is still there and plugged in. If it isn't there, the coin door light won't work. You don't need the harness using an electronic coin mech as the ribbon does it all but it doesn't supply power for the coindoor lights.

12 hours ago, Muzac said:

Hi again,

Ok, the plot thickens….🤔

I thought I’d reach out to Nigel from Sunrise Micro to see if he had any insight into testing the board etc.

This was his response re the LED:

The LED is a RESET indicator. Normally the LED is off.  It will flash briefly at power-on. It flashes if the anti-cheat spark reset is triggered, if it is in use.

From my observation it doesn’t do anything when it starts up but it does flash when the machine is turned off. Not so sure if that’s a sign of power reaching the board or not….

 

He also gave me a way of testing the board that involves wiring up the service switch and questioned the coin mech itself. I’ll aim to do this ASAP:

Connect a push button switch as per pin 3 solder side, service switch (or just touch wires together). Every time the contacts close the board will give one credit. If you get a credit on the machine this rules out any fundamental problem with the board or with the board to machine connections.

Next you need to look at the coin mech. Do you have another machine with a credit board installed in which you can verify that the coin mech and ribbon cable is working and that the coin mech is programmed to match a credit board?

 

Well if he says you don't need the LED lit, what can I say?. Sorry I guess. We certainly had a lot with that must of had faults causing the LED to be lit or being depicated AMF sunrise boards, maybe ours were slightly different. Most of ours were lit as soon as you applied power to the board and those that didn't, I presumed the LEDs had failed.

You did say all coins were being rejected originally didn't you?

Drop a coin through the mech while everything is plugged in and note what side of the bottom of the mech the coin comes out.

Now unplug the ribbon cable and drop a coin through again and just confirm the coin comes out the bottom of the mech the same side.

The bottom of the mech has two coin exit paths, one for excepted coins and the other is the reject side. You can pull the coin mech out of the door to do this test. Just make sure you hold it upright like it sits in the door and the ribbon isn't stretched and the coin mech will do what it is supposed to do.

Starting to look like a crook coin mech or ribbon but a bit hard to see from here.

Did you tell Nigel you are using the credit board on a C-120?.

I will say we only ever used NRI coin mechs on these Sunrise pinball boards, I don't think C 120s were around then. I'm thinking it would make no difference but sort of clutching at straws now.