(Solved) Jungle Lord mini games flashers problem.

[Dedrok]

Seem to have a weird issue on a Jungle Lord, where the lights don’t flash when the mini bagatelle game is on. 

From what I gather

- ball enters top lock hole

- GI relay turns out all the GI

- mini ball kicks and enters a lane, returning to its kick position. 

Its here that from what I gather, that once the GI goes out, the 5 or so playfield lamps should be flashing until the switch closure , and the GI turn back on. 

- GI relay turns GI on

- lock hole kicks ball back into play. 

Both boards have been sent for repair and tested. 

They flash and work in attract mode

Anyone have any ideas?

 

Edited November 7, 2021 by Dedrok

[skids]

Are you using system 3-6 driver board Instead of system 7? Using 3-6 can cause weird things on a system 7
On system 7  resistors R196 through R211 should be wire jumpers or 0 ohm resistors.

 

[Autosteve]

Question for you. What Williams was the first to have the scores that strobed slowly to indicate what player was playing?.

I'm thinking Black Knight but not sure if it was Alien Poker or Algar?

They all flash till you score but this slow strobing went on through the whole ball whenever you hadn't score for a couple of seconds.

Any ideas?.

[wiredoug]

never seen this game but its maybe going to behave if you switch back to lamps not LED?  (guess)

[Autosteve]

I'm thinking it may have the earlier style power supply board fitted. Should have the GI relay mounted on PS board itself rather than an external relay on a seperate board like that used on Blackout.

 

[Dedrok]

14 hours ago, skids said:

Are you using system 3-6 driver board Instead of system 7? Using 3-6 can cause weird things on a system 7
On system 7  resistors R196 through R211 should be wire jumpers or 0 ohm resistors.

 

Tried both, but, my sys 3 board has had all the upgrades, including the jumpers at resistors. 

The sys 7 is back in.

 

14 hours ago, wiredoug said:

never seen this game but its maybe going to behave if you switch back to lamps not LED?  (guess)

This is what I’m trying next. Had thought that, but have seen video of working normally with Leds online. 

 

14 hours ago, Autosteve said:

I'm thinking it may have the earlier style power supply board fitted. Should have the GI relay mounted on PS board itself rather than an external relay on a seperate board like that used on Blackout.

 

It’s a sys 7 power supply. GI relay is on it. 

at first I thought it could be relay related, but it’s totally controlled lamps. Not Flashers and not GI. 

 

I found 1 wiring issue after going back over the whole under playfield. I’m no expert, but sure this isn’t how a switch is wired, but can’t see it affecting lamps. Will soon see. 

Am starting to think it a rom problem. 

[Autosteve]

Those lights on the mini playfield are controlled by the lamp matrix according to the diagram.

They call them "mini playfiled illumination" on the lamp matrix diagram so I asume that would be the lights that aren't working correctly?

Funny they use a number of drives to run the collection of bulbs that all make up the mini playfiled illumination.

These are the matrix lamp numbers....

24....it drives two bulbs

32

38

47

48

K1 special relay looks like it does just contol all the GI like you suspected but it is broken in two circuits all feed from the one 20amp fuse. One circuit is lower playfield and the other is upper and cabinet. These two circuits are after the relay

Not sure how you'll view this on your phone but...

https://www.ipdb.org/files/1338/Williams_1981_Jungle_Lord_Manual.pdf

Let me know if you need the wire colours to the bulbs. not listed on the JK diagram.

Edited October 14, 2021 by Autosteve

[Dedrok]

You are correct on all counts there, and yes, I have been through all manuals, changed all settings etc. Double checked right through. Have spent countless hours reading through manuals, schematics, repair guides  

Seeing as they all work in game over attract mode, then it proves the wiring all good. 

All other problems seem to be fixed. 

Just not this. 

It just seems to me that the roms aren’t telling the game to run them when in the mini game. 

I tried changing out the Leds   - no different  

 

 

Edited October 14, 2021 by Dedrok

[wiredoug]

has it got williams code on it?   i saw there was this mod out there as well that broke the mini pf lighting -https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/announce-jungle-lord-new-tricks-home-rom#post-4729260

[Autosteve]

Yes if they work in attract mode, that confirms the wiring, bulbs and sockets are all good back to the board as far as I can see.

What does it do when you put the machine in lamp matrix test?. They still work correctly like in attract mode?.

Found some sweet play cards though....

 

Edited October 14, 2021 by Autosteve

[Dedrok]

17 hours ago, wiredoug said:

has it got williams code on it?   i saw there was this mod out there as well that broke the mini pf lighting -https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/announce-jungle-lord-new-tricks-home-rom#post-4729260

Interesting. 

Am sure it’s not a home rom. Will check what version it’s running. 

Had new flipper rom done. The game roms had been changed. 

[Gemini2544]

This may help, but when I converted my Pin*Bot to LED's some flashers just would not work, however if I left a couple of globe flashers in the circuit they all worked. So I think a load on the circuit is needed. Just a suggestion, I don't know this game.

[Autosteve]

Your the man if that turns out to be the problem @wiredoug . Be hanging to see this Jungle Lord get the @Dedrok treatment and this most frustrating bullshit problem comes up. Oww well, all good things take time.

I say frustrating because it really is a problem that shouldn't exist.

[Dedrok]

Ok. 

It says rev 0 in audits. (2503  0)

2 = Blue rom ,  503 = Game # ... They aren’t original game roms. (I don’t think). New Blue Flipper roms were done.

Just had a scare again when commas locked on and no sound followed by boot problems. Pressed on the roms and came good. Even though sockets have all been replaced, it is pretty cold down the bottom shed  

Might bite the bullet and just install new roms  

2 hours ago, Gemini2544 said:

This may help, but when I converted my Pin*Bot to LED's some flashers just would not work, however if I left a couple of globe flashers in the circuit they all worked. So I think a load on the circuit is needed. Just a suggestion, I don't know this game.

Yeah the sys 11 is a bit different as it is actual Flashers. 

The sys 7 isn’t actually Flashers but controlled lamps. 

Although I do see some ghosting in the backbox Leds as well as some ghosting flickering when using flippers. 

Alas. 1 thing at a time. 

Edited October 15, 2021 by Dedrok

[Dedrok]

One thing I noticed is that in multiball, when you lock a ball, the centre light flashes, so it’s working during multiball. 

Here is gameplay for reference. 

https://youtu.be/vdG_dT2n8tI

[Railways]

Mate. I'm glad you're tackling this as I would have just given up and put it on Gummy for offers above $1000.

Pretty sure you'll get on top of it though, you tend to be a tenacious bugger. (It will not beat me).

Enjoying reading the thread and admiring how we can all help each other out.

Edit. BTW, The playboy is now 99% finished and thanks for your help with the PF.

Edited October 15, 2021 by Railways

[Autosteve]

I read in that link from @wiredoug the rom swap they talk about mods the game with a timed skillshot, not real sure if that is checkable but it also mentions the mini playfield now has lane change when in use which the original roms do not.

Should be easy enough to check if it does have these Home Roms.

[Dedrok]

Yeah definitely not a modded rom, I read that link too. 

I did find one thing not mentioned in any rule sets. Hitting into the top hole without any switch closures starts instant multiball. 

Anyway, I think I’m done on this one, have spent so much time on this game , it has been a total nightmare from the start. 

At least now it’s pretty reliable and plays without problems, except this lighting one  

I still think it’s roms though. 

Edited October 16, 2021 by Dedrok

[Gemini2544]

2 hours ago, Dedrok said:

it has been a total nightmare from the start.

I know the feeling.

Edited October 16, 2021 by Gemini2544

[Dedrok]

Just a heads up to finish this off once and for all. 

The U26 game rom seemed to be bad and the game kept playing up. Blowing fuses and irregular booting  

Installed new game roms and the lights now work as they should. 

So I was correct assuming that it was a rom issue. 

 

 

[Autosteve]

Cool. A rom fault aye. You know I have never had a (factory) rom fault but hundreds of socket failures.

My favourite way of detecting socket failures was get the machine to the stage you have detected the problem, usually on bootup but not always and gently stick a needle between the IC leg and the socket one at a time. If it is that leg not quite connecting, the machine responds....usually.

To confirm I'd jam the needle in a little and reboot the machine and see if the problem went away.

Had a mate's 6M$man that I located a bad socket on using this method and the idea was a week later I'd swap the sockets over and done.

He sold the machine that week and it went up in the Lithgow area with a needle sticking out of the MPU board.😄

Anyway, what's next through the Dedshed seeing as you had success with the Jungle Lord. I look forward to you posts.

[Dedrok]

1 minute ago, Autosteve said:

Cool. A rom fault aye. You know I have never had a (factory) rom fault but hundreds of socket failures.

My favourite way of detecting socket failures was get the machine to the stage you have detected the problem, usually on bootup but not always and gently stick a needle between the IC leg and the socket one at a time. If it is that leg not quite connecting, the machine responds....usually.

To confirm I'd jam the needle in a little and reboot the machine and see if the problem went away.

Had a mate's 6M$man that I located a bad socket on using this method and the idea was a week later I'd swap the sockets over and done.

He sold the machine that week and it went up in the Lithgow area with a needle sticking out of the MPU board.😄

Anyway, what's next through the Dedshed seeing as you had success with the Jungle Lord. I look forward to you posts.

Nothing through the DedShed for a while as too many basket cases giving me grief so taking a break. 

It broke my brain and had to walk away. 

Currently fiddling with an EM Sure Shot and a Johnny Mnemonic that had hacked connectors, wiring in the harness going nowhere and just making work/play as it should. 

Anyway

The Jungle Lord Rom changed 3 or 4 things in rules that I noticed

1: No Instant multiball. (Old rom , plunge ball and hit directly into top hole, with no switch hits, gave multiball right off the bat)

2: Lights now flash in mini game when supposed to with ball locked. (Old rom, this didn’t work)

3: LORD lane change (no longer works! Old rom, pressing the Magna save buttons would lane change the mini game, if Magna save was enabled)

4: Buzzer buzzes twice (Old rom, running over a lit letter in LORD on the mini game only buzzed once.)