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My bet to a workmate over the future of cars


danny_galaga
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Also, let's not forget that my bet is about no new cars by 2031. If I'm right, that implies you could still but a new petrol powered car in 2030. Unless rural types are in the habit of changing cars like they do undies (which would be more of a city slicker thing you would think) they're 2030 model can last until say 2050. Provided there's still fuel available. 

It's often mentioned about governments being asked to prop up the new technologies. Well, the Australian government has just plowed 2 BILLION dollars into propping up two petrol refineries.

If, in that scenario after 2050 the rural types are still in trouble, I think we can both agree we are ALL in trouble...

Edited by danny_galaga
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I think in this country but likely to be the case in many other countries where they simply don't produce enough electricity to run there vehicle fleets solely on electricity.

We have prospered as a nation because of our ability to produce cheap electricity through coal but as we speak like most days, NSW is not quite supplying all it's own needs fully and pulling power from the QLD grid.

In 2023 NSW looses one of it's power stations that at the moment is providing around 1/4 of this state's needs.

This is going on in a country that currently only has around 3% EV use. Ramp that EV use up and it doesn't take long to realise there simply isn't going to be enough electricity so then it becomes a case of who actually gets the power and for what use?.

Remember what I said earlier here, EVs are a power hog.

When there isn't enough of a commodity, the price goes up so less can afford it so that feeds into less wanting or being able to afford an EV making it more in need of government help to try and make it viable.

That government help will probably come from charging those that are still using fossil fuels for what ever reason only compounding the problem for more requiring more assistance.

So now you end up with the whole transportation industry of a nation requiring government help solely to keep the nation running causing prices of everything to go through the roof and shortage of supply in all products.

In 2021, the world burnt more coal than ever before by the way. I see this only ramping up the less fossil fuels the world uses for transportation needs.

 

 

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I think a far more viable way of addressing our problem here in Australia for our transport needs is an alternative liquid fuel. Sugar cane production ramped up and our fleet could run on Ethenol. The last of the Commodores ran quite successfully on 85% ethenol as do the V8 supercars in motor racing.

I know, it has a carbon output but so does biofuel that the EU is quite happy allowing some EU nations to burn as an alternative to coal in EU power stations reasoning being, it is renewable as they can regrow more trees.

Unfortunately it takes years to regrow a tree where as sugar cane is a yearly crop making it far more suitable as a "renewable" crop.

When it comes to fossil fuel use, I too have my concerns for Australia but my concernes are regarding a blockade of supply via the shipping lanes all our oil comes in through, namely the South China Sea where all our oil comes now from production plants in Singapore.

If an enemy were to blockade those ships we have just a little over 2 weeks supply of any fuel and if that was to happen the military would take all that stored in the country immediately and without fuel for transportation we are still very reliant on, there would be no food getting into our cities.

That is precisely the reason the government threw in that money to keep our last two refinerys operating as crude oil can be stored indefinately where as refined fuel products have a shelf life. Petrolium for example is under 1 year but crude oil, no shelf life.

EVs need electricity and it is estimated to take 10 years to build a power station be it nuclear, biomass or whatever and that would take us well past 2030.

We are both thinking along the same lines all be it for different motives. Problem is nothing is being done and not nearly quick enough.

One thing I really am ashamed about with our Australian culture is that "she'll be right" mentality.

 

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Ethanol is a dead end like nuclear. Foods is much more important than private transport, if you grew enough cane to power all cars in Australia, we wouldn't have enough land for food production.

Renewables like wind, and especially solar have negligible build time compared to power stations. There's one nuclear power station in the us that was just completed- it took THIRTY YEARS to build! And the cost blowout was something like going from 10 billion to 30 billion! And that's with the us government carrying the can for new nuclear power stations. Talk about expecting the government to subsidize 😲

 

I reckon for 30 billion we could run the whole of Australia with wind solar and batteries. And within a couple of years.

I think I advocated nuclear for Australia in this thread I think. But the more I read the more it looks like only socialist and totalitarian governments are willing to pay for it. Not really an option for conservatives who are constantly saying we should let the market sort it out. Well, the markets are saying no one thinks they can make money from nuclear.

Edited by danny_galaga
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Wind and solar and batteries? Can't run bugger all with that. Unless you send all industry overseas where they will use coal to make your EV car.

If you don't want nuclear I can't understand how the nation will function without coal or gas. Maybe you can get on a fitness pedal bike and charge your car if that makes you feel like your saving the world.

The world isn't going to end. Get off the ABC.

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3 hours ago, kimbleseven said:

Wind and solar and batteries? Can't run bugger all with that. Unless you send all industry overseas where they will use coal to make your EV car.

If you don't want nuclear I can't understand how the nation will function without coal or gas. Maybe you can get on a fitness pedal bike and charge your car if that makes you feel like your saving the world.

The world isn't going to end. Get off the ABC.

I know that Moans and Dolt constantly tell you not to listen to the ABC because they are evil socialists. It's what abusive people and cult leaders always tell you- don't listen to anyone else, only I know the truth. But quite a lot of my info comes from The Economist, which describes itself as centre right. Pretty much all stripes agree we need to stop burning coal and oil. Well, except for right wing commentators in fossil fuel countries like Australia and the USA. But in the UK, the country that pretty much invented the conservative movement, and which has a much smaller fossil fuel industry , they all agree on climate change 

What a coincidence 😉 

Also funny how the coal country conservatives urge us to subsidise non renewables, yet industry is saying it's cheaper to buy renewables. Hang on, don't conservatives always urge us to let the markets decide?

 

I for one think nuclear would be a good option, but we will have to pay a lot more for power. It's pretty much the most expensive option- even more costly than coal.

Edited by danny_galaga
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Already spent more than $10-30 billion on solar and wind subsudies and according to the " Where is my Power Coming From" site right at this moment, I would say it has all been to date a waste of money by governments ignoring the inevidable

https://www.energymatters.com.au/energy-efficiency/australian-electricity-statistics/

Wind shows some promise but those things have to be maintained and replaced as they aren't lasting 50 years like a power station does.

Solar panels need regular cleaning, "just like your windscreen in a car does), and no one ever does nor do they get electricians to ever "regularly" check the cabling that sits in the sun and weather all it's life like they are supposed to.

Back to the wind, the longer the transmission lines carrying the power, the larger the waste as in power loss. Seeing as the major consumer of the countries power is in the cities it seems quite logical to me to mount the wind turbines on top of the highest building in every city rather than all the way out into the country as wind turbines don't need coal, do they?.

Would certainly cut the massive waste of power simply trying to get to the consumer like it is right now using coal plants out there "because that is where the coal is". Been atop of many a high rise and I can tell you there most certainly is always wind.

When every building within each city has every roof with a wind turbine on it and they see they still are running out of reliable power, someone might actually listen.

No, we'll go out in the pristine Australian bush, flatten the trees and construct this massive 10 story high bright white tower with it's massive spinning propellers that can be seen for 10kms and then put power lines over the land for 100s of kms back to the city.

Not sure if QLD is the same but in NSW this is going on and it truely is disgraceful the vandalism going on where not enough people life to oppose it happening.

Been along the Great Ocean Road into Vic and seen those turbines and while I think they suck being there, that is nothing compared to NSW.

For these reasons I am opposed to wind especially when you do the maths and realise just how many more of these things are going to be required to subsitute coal plants.

Thank God it looks like the small country NSW town of Numble isn't getting this in there neighbourhood.

https://www.nbnnews.com.au/2021/02/10/tamworth-council-votes-to-object-plans-for-proposed-nundle-wind-farm/

Just doesn't look right does it in a town of a couple of hundred that has looked as it does for over a century.

Is this progress?. Looking after the planet are we?. Very short sighted vandalism I'd call it and you know the irony, not a green to be seen. I guess it's to much travel for them.

Quite frankly I could give a shit where the power comes from or how it is generated but....

It must be able to do exactly as we expect it to with no shortages.

It must be priced as expected

And don't destroy my country doing it.

Some of us actually love our country.

 

Edited by Autosteve
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Kimbleseven, you do know we already don't manufacture cars in Australia, right? Bonus points if you can name the prime Minister who shut down our car industry.

 

Steve, I love your input and I know you at least consider other points of view. For instance, the anti renewable crowd will hit you with a logical fallacy like 'wind turbines need to be maintained therefore coal is better'. It's a logical fallacy because that statement ignores the fact that coal fired power stations also need to be maintained. And in fact, they have to be shut down entirely to maintain them, whereas at least with wind farms, you can shut down individual turbines. So I know you would see that statement is null.

 

Attached is a pic of a coal fired station that probably could have done with a bit more maintenance 

images (7).jpeg

Edited by danny_galaga
Fucking android predictive text
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As nasty as that looks at the moment, Open pit mining is actually the safest form...You don't have the tailing piles that create acid runoff polluting ground water and for the short term is easily controlled...Ironically, batteries on the other hand are actually filled with  sulfuric acid electrolytes (on purpose), and lead which is also generally mined in pits like that.

 

Edited by CandyLand
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38 minutes ago, danny_galaga said:

"and don't destroy my country doing it"

coalminebeauty (1).jpg

Point taken. I have seen some of these pits and that picture actually doesn't do it justice, some of these things are absolutely massive....100kmH in a car and it takes 1/2 hour to drive past one of a couple of pits.

In saying that, I saw where a site had been rehabitated, probably after 30 years of mining use mind you but, it struck me how good of a job they actually did. It was signposted by the company that did the rehab work but shit, I'd put my name on that if I did it too.

It was a slight hill, ( about 5-10kms long mind you), but the trees were all different sized and species but nothing was in rows and if it wasn't signposted, I wouldn't have known what it used to be.

I actually like the idea of flooding them like they have been doing in Germany for years now. Doesn't seem to have any bad effects after all, we use coal as filters as pointed out on the story I saw about it.

They become recreation sites for humans mainly but some become storage water sites and like everywhere in the Australian bush, put in a good supply of water and you bring in the wildlife and it booms. Something I could never understand why greens oppose dams so strongly.

There is another point you need to understand though. Because it is generally flat where the mines are, you don't really see them till your pretty much on top of them, (being a hole in the ground), like you do a 10 story bright white tower with spinning propellers on a hill in the bush.

The other problem is wind turbines up to date aren't being maintained, just replaced elsewhere with other new turbines because only installations are subsidised. Not ongoing costs or disposal and there is no land/site rehibilition clauses in the install contract.

 

 

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 Duz anybody remember petrol strikes?  when i was teenager in the 80s i worked as a driveway attendant at the olds servo n whenever there was going to be a petrol strike the line of cars waiting to juice up was never ending i think back then super was 49.9 cents a liter i cant remember how much standard was

Was it dick stickers Abbot that stopped subsidies to the car manufacturing industry? 

Action needs to be taken now on how this country is going to generate  cleaner power in the future because  marketing morrison n his bum chum barnyard beetroot barnaby sure as shit aint going to do it as for the greens i would be surprised if any of the greens members in parliment actually cared about the environment i  often wonder if any members of parliment give a frogs fat ass about anything other than themselves and their intrests  if nothing is done this is the result 

A few pics of our farm after the 2019 bushfires destroyed it all house dairy sheds tractor all gone

 

 

 

DSCN4013.JPG

DSCN4137.JPG

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https://thedriven.io/2022/01/21/electric-vehicles-that-tow-trailers-ev-owners-dispel-yet-another-myth/amp/

 

We travelled 6,000kms across Europe for 4 weeks with two small children and a small caravan. No problem,” said Nils-Henrik Brynildsen Henningstad (picture shown below).

 

 

 

 

271925737_10158026848121612_2822523444039470317_n.jpg

Edited by danny_galaga
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I tow an electric digger around the countryside (NZ) with my model S. Yep, (I) have to charge twice as much as normal, but (it is) still cheaper than buying petrol or diesel,” said Jonathan Daley of New Zealand.

 

 

271738599_5399336263416524_5208789782401267474_n-640x360.jpg

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That would have to be the most totally unsuitable vehicle for either of those jobs and indicates the level of idiots the stories are about.

I say this not because they are EVs, I do think it is a stupid idea though but read this article, something they should have both done prior to buying a Tesla S and putting a towbar on it.

https://justdownsize.com/can-a-tesla-model-s-tow-a-caravan/

Notice the S is not on the "approved Tesla factory" vehicles for towing and voids the warrenty.

To many people buy totally unsuitable vehicles for there needs. Ever seen someone in a front wheel drive trying to pull a boat up a wet boat ramp?

Three guys sitting on the bonnet while the front wheels are spinning was one case I saw. Sure, can be done but totally unsuitable when far cheaper, more rederly avaliable and more suitable vehicles are on the market.

Looking closely at that picture of the excavator note how close the towbar tongue is to the ground?. Makes me think the picture is staged because every bump would have that tounge hitting the ground. Picture that going over a speed bump and you'll see what I mean.

I'm no professional at towing but when i tow the tongue is close to 3 times that height from the road for that exact reason.

The crap around this subject is rediculious. Seen the Toyota ad on the TV with the girl riding up the hill on a go cart?.

The proven for decades Bridge and Straton petrol engine she can't get to the top of the hill but that's not a worry because her girlfriend has managed to make herself a Hybred power plant in her garage with her mother and with that fitted, the go cart goes all the way complete with blue flashing lights in the wheels. Both girls in fact.

Really, couldn't get a proven technology petrol motor to do it but can get a homemade Hybred to do it.

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On 20/01/2022 at 11:22 PM, Autosteve said:

Point taken. I have seen some of these pits and that picture actually doesn't do it justice, some of these things are absolutely massive....100kmH in a car and it takes 1/2 hour to drive past one of a couple of pits.

In saying that, I saw where a site had been rehabitated, probably after 30 years of mining use mind you but, it struck me how good of a job they actually did. It was signposted by the company that did the rehab work but shit, I'd put my name on that if I did it too.

It was a slight hill, ( about 5-10kms long mind you), but the trees were all different sized and species but nothing was in rows and if it wasn't signposted, I wouldn't have known what it used to be.

I actually like the idea of flooding them like they have been doing in Germany for years now. Doesn't seem to have any bad effects after all, we use coal as filters as pointed out on the story I saw about it.

They become recreation sites for humans mainly but some become storage water sites and like everywhere in the Australian bush, put in a good supply of water and you bring in the wildlife and it booms. Something I could never understand why greens oppose dams so strongly.

There is another point you need to understand though. Because it is generally flat where the mines are, you don't really see them till your pretty much on top of them, (being a hole in the ground), like you do a 10 story bright white tower with spinning propellers on a hill in the bush.

The other problem is wind turbines up to date aren't being maintained, just replaced elsewhere with other new turbines because only installations are subsidised. Not ongoing costs or disposal and there is no land/site rehibilition clauses in the install contract.

 

 

 

 

Old fern tree gully quarry is a nice example but was never really a modern mine like say Olympic dam which is magnitudes larger. Also Olympic dam is pretty much in the middle of nowhere.

https://www.google.com/maps/uv?pb=!1s0x6ad63cb8400eff0f%3A0x89ec56694dc3eeaa!3m1!7e115!4shttps%3A%2F%2Flh5.googleusercontent.com%2Fp%2FAF1QipNYbNzKQSipchOb8yJ1nPPar72LuOiMuc6D0Um1%3Dw426-h240-k-no!5sferntree gully quarry - Google Search!15sCgIgAQ&imagekey=!1e10!2sAF1QipNYbNzKQSipchOb8yJ1nPPar72LuOiMuc6D0Um1&hl=en&sa=X&sqi=2&ved=2ahUKEwiS7Nnxgsn1AhUYzzgGHZnLAxMQoip6BAhJEAM

 

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The 2nd one there sort of lost my limited credability I had given it when they used phrases like "Belching coal power stations" and "gusling petrol engines". Funny no one ever discribed them like that for the first century of there use, only over the past 10years or so.

I read it all though, some is interesting. Not sure about the pressurise old coal mines bit though. How come I can see that won't work but supposed experts can con money out of our government, "we are lucky the world is allowing it to be tested in Australia" the story says......No we are the only people on the planet that will fund it more the case.

Saw an interesting idea that happens in Norway regarding its iron ore trains. Biggest iron ore mine in the word by the way.

Train, (electric),  comes from the top of a mountain and it's regenative braking produces enough power to drive another train back up......O power required.

Got me thinking in Australia, (the dryest country that only collects 1% of it's fresh water), using hydro to produce power simply isn't happening even if the greens could be convinced to allow us to rip up the Snowy Mountains National Park to make it.  Simply not enough water stored and never likely to be...............scratch Snowy Hydro 2.

What if you replace the water and piping in hydro with trains on a rail using the downhill off this lovely mountain range we call "the Great Dividing Range"?.

The trains motors work exactly like the water turbine in hydro producing massive amounts of power, the electric train uses the overhead wires to throw the power into the grid. A portable power station on rails.

We are not talking any electric train here either more power station generators on rails. Think Hybred car regenerative braking on a massive scale. Rails would be dedicated solely for this purpose and would be a straight as possible rail wise using the slope as kenetic energy and many such rails along the dividing range, all 3 states. You can run multiple trains down the same track or mutiple trains over the different tracks depending on where the "on demand power" is required. Solar or wind power the trains back up the hill during the day ready for use the next time on demand power is required.

Simply replacing the water part in hydro with kenetic energy a train has going down a very long hill. The more power you pull out of the generators on the train, the greater the braking effect required to slow the train as it goes down hill. Many strechers down off the Dividing Range well over 20kms long with a constant angle.

Old technology used in a different way but it all works and has done for decades.

Aussie thinking not some world expert that wants to pressurise a coal mine like a giant pressure vessel and when you need on demand power, release the pressure through a wind turbine and there is your on demand power.

What does such an expert think is likely to happen after you cycle that process a couple of times in a mine ( known for caving in),  without stuffing with the air pressure inside.     Hmmm, government money. Australian government money. 

Ever put any thought into "we need to replace the power stations because they are nearing the end of there 50 year life".......

I guess we need to start tearing down other old concrete buildings like the Sydney Opera House or if it's vibration causing this rediculiously short concrete building life span I'm thinking the old concrete Gladesville bridge would be on the chopping block as well as would all our 50 year old buildings and bridges used in this country.

Gotta get on demand power sorted or EVs don't stand a chance.

You wrote earlier wind and solar is all we need.

Well sort of but you do need a few very large generators to stablize the whole grid as in frequency or HTz.

Because all solar panels are DC, solar panel outputs have to be converted to AC....(All solar panels are DC), before it can get to the AC grid, it runs through a DC to AC converter that makes an artifical 50 HTz AC frequency, (in this country). Not all DC to AC converters produce exactly the same 50Htz frequency and you need large generators within the grid to stablise this effect from the entire grid.

Battery bank won't work because batteries are DC that require converting to AC artifically as well. Wind turbines produce AC but have peaks and periods of no power generation at all and to tell you quite honestly, I don't know how they create the 50 HTz, it may be artifical as well and if turbine speed effects AC frequency, there's a problem right there as well.

Basically, you need a big generator producing presisely 50HTz AC to smother any variations produced over the grid artificially and when you take to many precision 50Htz generators out of the grid, you have some major fluctuations across the grid basically blowing shit up....That's AC when it's not stable frequency wise.

This exact problem happened in Germany when they went to much Green energy within there grid. I think it was the late 90s or early 2000s but it was a disaster. The Germans answer was grab more power from Poland's coal power plants over the border to stablise the German grid. I think the Poles allowed this for 2 weeks before they cut the supply because it was effecting Polish power users as well. It is a major problem not talked about very often. Not exactly sure how Germany sorted the problem out by I suspect they brought more old power stations back on line. You need a very stable AC frequency for a grid to work correctly.

What really pisses me off is government advisors that really show no understanding of basic fundemental electricial theroys that any electrician is taught making nation changing ideas through the government that  impliments them.

Sorry mate, didn't mean to rant but I figure better to know correctly and also know all is not as rosy as some imply.

 

 

 

 

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There is a really good movie with lee majors in it from 1981 i think called The last chase the government bans cars because it sez there is no fuel left  mighty Lee Majors thinks otherwise n digs up his race car puts it all together then goes for a drive n proceeds to get chased by a saber jet fighter plane that the government has sent to kill him i havent seen the movie in years  well worth watching if you can find it

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5 hours ago, Autosteve said:

The 2nd one there sort of lost my limited credability I had given it when they used phrases like "Belching coal power stations" and "gusling petrol engines". Funny no one ever discribed them like that for the first century of there use, only over the past 10years or so.

I read it all though, some is interesting. Not sure about the pressurise old coal mines bit though. How come I can see that won't work but supposed experts can con money out of our government, "we are lucky the world is allowing it to be tested in Australia" the story says......No we are the only people on the planet that will fund it more the case.

Saw an interesting idea that happens in Norway regarding its iron ore trains. Biggest iron ore mine in the word by the way.

Train, (electric),  comes from the top of a mountain and it's regenative braking produces enough power to drive another train back up......O power required.

Got me thinking in Australia, (the dryest country that only collects 1% of it's fresh water), using hydro to produce power simply isn't happening even if the greens could be convinced to allow us to rip up the Snowy Mountains National Park to make it.  Simply not enough water stored and never likely to be...............scratch Snowy Hydro 2.

What if you replace the water and piping in hydro with trains on a rail using the downhill off this lovely mountain range we call "the Great Dividing Range"?.

The trains motors work exactly like the water turbine in hydro producing massive amounts of power, the electric train uses the overhead wires to throw the power into the grid. A portable power station on rails.

We are not talking any electric train here either more power station generators on rails. Think Hybred car regenerative braking on a massive scale. Rails would be dedicated solely for this purpose and would be a straight as possible rail wise using the slope as kenetic energy and many such rails along the dividing range, all 3 states. You can run multiple trains down the same track or mutiple trains over the different tracks depending on where the "on demand power" is required. Solar or wind power the trains back up the hill during the day ready for use the next time on demand power is required.

Simply replacing the water part in hydro with kenetic energy a train has going down a very long hill. The more power you pull out of the generators on the train, the greater the braking effect required to slow the train as it goes down hill. Many strechers down off the Dividing Range well over 20kms long with a constant angle.

Old technology used in a different way but it all works and has done for decades.

Aussie thinking not some world expert that wants to pressurise a coal mine like a giant pressure vessel and when you need on demand power, release the pressure through a wind turbine and there is your on demand power.

What does such an expert think is likely to happen after you cycle that process a couple of times in a mine ( known for caving in),  without stuffing with the air pressure inside.     Hmmm, government money. Australian government money. 

Ever put any thought into "we need to replace the power stations because they are nearing the end of there 50 year life".......

I guess we need to start tearing down other old concrete buildings like the Sydney Opera House or if it's vibration causing this rediculiously short concrete building life span I'm thinking the old concrete Gladesville bridge would be on the chopping block as well as would all our 50 year old buildings and bridges used in this country.

Gotta get on demand power sorted or EVs don't stand a chance.

You wrote earlier wind and solar is all we need.

Well sort of but you do need a few very large generators to stablize the whole grid as in frequency or HTz.

Because all solar panels are DC, solar panel outputs have to be converted to AC....(All solar panels are DC), before it can get to the AC grid, it runs through a DC to AC converter that makes an artifical 50 HTz AC frequency, (in this country). Not all DC to AC converters produce exactly the same 50Htz frequency and you need large generators within the grid to stablise this effect from the entire grid.

Battery bank won't work because batteries are DC that require converting to AC artifically as well. Wind turbines produce AC but have peaks and periods of no power generation at all and to tell you quite honestly, I don't know how they create the 50 HTz, it may be artifical as well and if turbine speed effects AC frequency, there's a problem right there as well.

Basically, you need a big generator producing presisely 50HTz AC to smother any variations produced over the grid artificially and when you take to many precision 50Htz generators out of the grid, you have some major fluctuations across the grid basically blowing shit up....That's AC when it's not stable frequency wise.

This exact problem happened in Germany when they went to much Green energy within there grid. I think it was the late 90s or early 2000s but it was a disaster. The Germans answer was grab more power from Poland's coal power plants over the border to stablise the German grid. I think the Poles allowed this for 2 weeks before they cut the supply because it was effecting Polish power users as well. It is a major problem not talked about very often. Not exactly sure how Germany sorted the problem out by I suspect they brought more old power stations back on line. You need a very stable AC frequency for a grid to work correctly.

What really pisses me off is government advisors that really show no understanding of basic fundemental electricial theroys that any electrician is taught making nation changing ideas through the government that  impliments them.

Sorry mate, didn't mean to rant but I figure better to know correctly and also know all is not as rosy as some imply.

 

I think what you are in reference to of I am reading that correctly is its is not just the voltage, but the frequency simulation of said voltage...Like a variable frequency drive.

 

 

 

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Steve you are closer to the mark than you might think. We don't have a lot of water (I might add that one of the things going against nuclear for us is that it uses about as much water as coal power) so we would either have to use sea water or something else for the equivalent of pumped hydro. Potential energy from height can be in all sorts of forms, and one I'm excited about is the block stacking method used pioneered by Energy Vault.

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.watoday.com.au/national/western-australia/bhp-looks-at-giant-block-stacking-crane-to-store-pilbara-energy-20211216-p59ia4.html

Edited by danny_galaga
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