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My bet to a workmate over the future of cars


danny_galaga
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7 hours ago, Arcade King said:

If only you guys put as much effort into talking about Arcade and Pinball stuff......

I like to think I offer a mix, I also think this topic is read quite a lot, maybe you can clarify that @Arcade King with the forum data only a mod can see?.

Who would have thought?.....

https://batteriesnews.com/7-battery-electric-cars-day-catch-fire-china-most-involved-brands/

 

Not like we have flooding problems here....

Sorry @prktkljokr , I know you had your heart set on that LDV Deliver 9 EV $120,000.

Hahaa, $120,000. I could by 10 cars for that.....😄

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23 minutes ago, danny_galaga said:

Steve, did you see my car on the last page? Thought you might like it 🙂

Yer, LJ is it?. How many motor combos could you order them with?. I think there was at least 1X 4 cyl and at least 2X 6 cylinder. To think it was rust that usually killed them off and now it's becoming apparent 5-7 years is good enough for a modern car and it isn't rust, it simply isn't viable and no spare parts. 

9 minutes ago, jbtech said:

Nice Torana-saurus, don't see them too often these days. Looks like an LJ?

To think that Torana is as old now as a model T was when we were born.

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I used to work with a guy that raced LJs at the speedway. I told him I was having trouble getting the rack and pinion repaired. He said that's directly because of speedway. Once a car becomes popular as a speedway, all the steering spares disappear in no time because that's what gets trashed the most. So after the LJs heyday early Commodores and 2.6 mitsubishi sigmas all started to run short on spares for the front end.

Yeah, I think there were maybe 3 or 4 engine sizes for the LC and LJ. the 4 cylinder had a shorter front end. Mine had a 186, which wasn't an original option. 3 speed, with Speco floor shifter 😃 even in the early 70s, that's a pretty crude set up.

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Good call with the hurricane story Steve 🙂 As we have more and more severe weather due to climate change, if the type of battery doesn't change, there could be more and more car fires. 

On the power SUPPLY side, there's good news though, reducing the need for lithium batteries in that sector 

https://cleantechnica.com/2022/11/25/vanadium-flow-batteries-could-leapfrog-over-pumped-hydro-for-long-duration-energy-storage/amp/

 

The original research was done in Australia in the 80s but it's taken until now to perfect it. What other tech is coming that is still being finessed?

 

 

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17 hours ago, CandyLand said:

I couldn't agree more...Let's start with you Oldhank, Post up a pic of what are you and your cats working on, perhaps we can help.

I do have plans for an pinball electric guitar I've got all the bits I've just got to start on putting it together 

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Yes you can say there are more severe weather events that no doubt, vehicles will get involved in so to say EVs will stop the severe weather events is a pipe dream I don't buy into.

Do you remember the Bateman's Bay fires in NSW? You may also remember the power and internet went out for days on end in that area.

Imagine if the vehicles of those trying to escape were all EVs.

As it was it was petrol they were after this last fire only to find unless you had cash, (no internet for credit card), you got no fuel and the people were stranded unless they had enough fuel to get out of the fire areas remaining in there tanks.

The fuel station was brought back on line using a generator so fuel was flowing but no net so unless you had cash, no fuel.

It pointed out a few problems we are bound to see happening more and more as we as a nation become even more dependent on only one form of energy.

Remember that saying, "don't put all your eggs in the one basket".

 

 

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18 hours ago, Autosteve said:

 

Sorry @prktkljokr , I know you had your heart set on that LDV Deliver 9 EV $120,000.

Hahaa, $120,000. I could by 10 cars for that.....😄

Just doing the numbers on the $120,000 LDV van,

  • Power: 150kW.
  • Torque: 310Nm.
  • Top speed: 90km/h.
  • Range claim: 150km (cab chassis) or 280km (van)
  • Battery: 65kWh (cab chassis) or 88.5kWh (van)
  • Towing: 1200kg – 1500kg.

Not really selling itself, pretty sure if I needed a delivery van I would want more than 280 k range, that only allows me just over 14,000 k's a year driving it every day just as a delivery van, pretty sure statistics show that most average people do 20,000 k's  a year on average just personal use ( so you might have to buy 2 to do the job of 1 ICE van ), I would be holding up people on the freeway at 90 k's so I would have to bypass the freeway and make my deliveries longer, so my range to package deliveries would be less.

You can see that the manufacturers are just throwing out what they have, they are not fit for purpose yet and are far from being the ultimate replacement for ICE.

Forgot to mention it needs 12 hours to charge from a single phase outlet

 

Edited by prktkljokr
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They are priced at $50,000 in China, I see the other $70,000 is for shipping costs, then you have on road costs and dealer delivery fee's on top also, so we could be looking at a $140,000 van before we get to sign write it and insure it, being a LDV we should be able to pick one up second hand in a year for $20,000 🤣🤣🤣🤣

They are literally taking the p!ss, being from China and owned by SAIC motor company ( China owned ) I'm sure it will have some trojan connected to the Bluetooth ( we all remember Huawei )

Just have a read of some of the comments

https://www.carexpert.com.au/car-news/2023-ldv-edeliver-9-price-and-specs

You could literally buy any ICE van for less and at todays fuel prices get at least 250,000ks out of the money you would save not buying one.

 

I'm sure there will be some takers when they are released, but I cant see them being popular amongst delivery drivers,.

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7 minutes ago, prktkljokr said:

You can see that the manufacturers are just throwing out what they have, they are not fit for purpose yet

We have always been the dumping ground of the world's rubbish vehicles.

The last year of Commodore production it was pointed out Australia had 65 different makes selling vehicles here with a population of 25 million. At the same time the US had just over 50 makes with a population of 330 million.

I think hybrids are the better alternative to EVs that suit the "whole of Australia, not just the major cities", as they offer a vehicle that can basically do the job of an ICE vehicle.

A replacement battery pack for a hybrid from Toyota is $4000 and needs to be changed every 7 years. $4000 is cheaper than some of the electronic modules used in a lot of these new generation vehicles and to throw $4000 odd into another 7 years of service is not a bad deal and more importantly may go some way to addressing the "throw away one use vehicle problem"

The range of some of these hybrids is well over 1100Kms. They require no mains power which we are very quickly loosing.

Never really considered Hybrids myself but I heard the concept explained yesterday.

The battery only powers the vehicle from standstill to around 40km/h, the exact area ICE engines work there most inefficient but also when you require the most amount of torque, exactly what EVs are good at...low down torque.

The battery only stores around 2-3 minutes of full run power but is topped up when the vehicle is coasting or braking. The rest of the time the vehicle is basically an ICE powered machine. Even without a working battery, the vehicle will still get you out of trouble but fuel usage will most certainly go up.

The same motor writer that explained the Hybrid method also believes we are getting into the era of EVs needing gearboxes in an effort to extend range but having motors mounted at the wheel makes the gearbox idea harder than it sounds and one many EV manufacturers are not eager to tackle.

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Hybrid is a bit of a fence sitter, its not a electric vehicle, its still more of a ICE, from friends that have had hybrids, not 1 would say that they are the answer, If you drive them very gently, they have a good range, but as soon as you put your foot down and do some spirited driving they are no different than a ICE.

Not against going electric, I am against the whole business model of it though, If they were really serious about saving the planet the money they make would be a secondary concern, if I can charge it from home it should have a socket I can plug a generic 15 amp extension cord to, It should have a solar roof so it charges while it sits in the car park while I am at  work, you will find once we are all forced into having a EV they will be charging us all sorts of fees to cover what they lose when the ICE is fully retired, you can see it already, we will not be saving money or the planet we will only be saving big business.

Put solar in and get rebate, yeah I spend the money and the power company reaps the benefits while I'm at work , then give me a bill for the little power I do use at night, ( Thanks power company, for nothing !! ), you can see where this is heading and just like the sheep we are, we eat the grass and follow it all the way to the slaughter house 😁🤣🤣

Edited by prktkljokr
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According to LDV an 11kW charge at an AC wallbox with Type 2 port will fill the 88.5kWh battery in about 12 hours on a single-phase setup, or 8 hours on a three-phase.

So 11kw added to my power bill every day I recharge?

Say I do that 3 times a week. Now times that by the weeks in a quarterly power bill which is usually 12.

My power consumption just went up by 132kw just for one EV but at the moment I have 4 vehicles and that is just my one household of 4 adults.

Now start adding that extra power required for "ALL" the nations  households even if you are only allowed one vehicle, an EV per household and you quickly start seeing, right at the moment, there isn't enough power in the grid to do that demand and we are at the same time are shutting down the massive power plants we learnt we needed in the 50s and 60s.

A new generation that needs to learn it all over again I suppose. I vaguely remember the rolling blackouts of NSW before we had enough power but back then you cooked with gas, your transport was ICE and your lighting was electric and your heating was wood or Kero.

Now you try bundling that all up with just electricity and what do you think is going to happen?.

 

 

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I don't understand why its so hard to make a simple electric car that is not only user friendly, inexpensive and is fit for purpose?, they all seem to over complicate it for reasons only they know and then try to charge us a premium for it, they are not really serious about the purpose they are pushing this change for, they will use all the benefits of going electric to sell it but seem to keep the downfalls out of it.

For those who are into electric and electronic products some solutions are a no brainer, but we seem to accept what is being fed to us in respect to what you can buy.

If I can build a car trailer in my shed from recycled bits and products sold over the counter, that has a winch, compressor, emergency lighting, Electric brakes, Bluetooth etc and is only connected to the towing vehicle by the tow ball and a chain, completely solar and battery powered that always seems to stay charged no matter what at 13.2 volts, then how hard is it for people who have multiple degrees to make a car that could also be off the grid power wise so to speak, I know that perpetual motion cant be done but I'm sure they could get way more K's from a charge with adding solar to a vehicle that spends most of its driving time in the sun?, or will this eat into someone's money making?, the only reason I can see why is because you will get more by paying less.

Ok my trailer does not get used every day, but it does keep itself fully charged even after I use it all day, and all off a very small solar panel only designed to keep batteries topped off while not in use, so if I can do it on a small scale, quite cheap I might add, then why cant the professionals, am I missing something?.

 

My next project I am collecting bits for is actually a electric car , I have a 2005 Smart Fortwo with a stuffed motor and it has a glass roof which will be transformed into a solar panel for top up when not in use, I have bits like the vacuum pump for the brakes and a electric heater, I am just trying to work out how to do the batteries at the moment as they have to pretty much go under the floor where I have about 14cm in height of space and about a metre square, the motor at this stage will be from a old scrapped electric forklift connected to the gearbox so its not going to be real powerful, but it should at least be capable of 100kph 😁

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4 hours ago, Autosteve said:

We have always been the dumping ground of the world's rubbish vehicles.

The last year of Commodore production it was pointed out Australia had 65 different makes selling vehicles here with a population of 25 million. At the same time the US had just over 50 makes with a population of 330 million.

I think hybrids are the better alternative to EVs that suit the "whole of Australia, not just the major cities", as they offer a vehicle that can basically do the job of an ICE vehicle.

A replacement battery pack for a hybrid from Toyota is $4000 and needs to be changed every 7 years. $4000 is cheaper than some of the electronic modules used in a lot of these new generation vehicles and to throw $4000 odd into another 7 years of service is not a bad deal and more importantly may go some way to addressing the "throw away one use vehicle problem"

The range of some of these hybrids is well over 1100Kms. They require no mains power which we are very quickly loosing.

Never really considered Hybrids myself but I heard the concept explained yesterday.

The battery only powers the vehicle from standstill to around 40km/h, the exact area ICE engines work there most inefficient but also when you require the most amount of torque, exactly what EVs are good at...low down torque.

The battery only stores around 2-3 minutes of full run power but is topped up when the vehicle is coasting or braking. The rest of the time the vehicle is basically an ICE powered machine. Even without a working battery, the vehicle will still get you out of trouble but fuel usage will most certainly go up.

The same motor writer that explained the Hybrid method also believes we are getting into the era of EVs needing gearboxes in an effort to extend range but having motors mounted at the wheel makes the gearbox idea harder than it sounds and one many EV manufacturers are not eager to tackle.

I used to be keen on hybrids but unfortunately they tend to cost more than EV or ICE. there are different types of hybrid too. The best type would be the serial type. So the wheels are only powered by the electric motor, and the petrol engine drives the alternator. A little bit like diesel-electric in trains, tanks and mine dump trucks. This has the advantage of an engine that just runs in its most efficient range instead of idle to full power and everything in between like a regular car engine does, which is not very fuel efficient.

Pretty much any type of hybrid (plug in) bar the type you described has the advantage of being kind of 'multi fuel' in that if there's no petrol around, you can still at least commute on electric.

That will be very handy next time the Saudis have a conniption and all of us except plug in hybrid owners have to deal with rationed fuel.

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2 hours ago, prktkljokr said:

then how hard is it for people who have multiple degrees to make a car that could also be off the grid power wise so to speak, I know that perpetual motion cant be done but I'm sure they could get way more K's from a charge with adding solar to a vehicle that spends most of its driving time in the sun?, or will this eat into someone's money making?, the only reason I can see why is because you will get more by paying less.

 

There are a couple of companies pursuing this avenue. The idea is that when the car is parked, the solar is recharging the battery. This extends the range, particularly if it's used for commuting. For a rough example. Say the car has a 300 km range normally. And you commute 30 km a day. Ostensibly that would be ten days before totally flat (you wouldn't let it go totally flat, but let's keep it simple). And if the car is parked in the sun, and panels give an average of say 15 km range extra in that day, then your effective time before totally flat would be 30 days. That's pretty freakin sweet. 

Right now though, that adds a lot to the already high price. I agree, there should be more A to B options for EVs. Seems everyone is making Ferrari slayers. My car is I think 100kw even. Equivalent performance in EV terms would be something like maybe 70kw. A car like that, with just ordinary hatchback performance is all a lot of people need. Do that and the battery pack doesn't have to be as big to get a decent range.

Oh, and don't underestimate electric forklift motors. Here's a 9 second Mazda MX-5 running a pair of forklift motors 🙂

 

 

 

Edited by danny_galaga
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It just seems that they have a 1 type fits all mentality, it would be much better to offer a base model without all the bells and whistles that just gets the job done, maybe less range per charge for people that only use it to go to work and get home, no performance just a A to B sort of thing, then if you want more range then it starts to get more costly, at the moment every manufacturer is packing their EV's with every conceivable feature known to the motor industry and charging accordingly.

I was reading a article the other day that a Chinese Ute manufacturer was building ICE crew cab Utes in a no frills base form and selling them for $8600 US, this is a vehicle with just the basics, it has a 2ltr fuel injected 4 cylinder mated to a 5 speed transmission, air conditioning, power steering, leather seats, electric windows and even a Bluetooth radio ( hmmm basic ) so if they can build a crew cab Ute in this trim level for this sort of money, why does it cost another $90,000 to make it electric?

Ok you can safely say that a $8600 US Ute is not going to last, but at that price you could buy a new one every 2 years and still be in front seeing a LDV ICE Ute will set you back $40,000, or the Deliver 9 at $120,000, you could buy 1 each year and have a pile of old ones in the back yard🤣 

Tried to find the link but could only find this one for $9000 US, so it shows that cheap vehicles can be made ( not pretty, but cheap ) 

https://www.thedrive.com/news/39893/gm-china-launches-9000-pickup-with-fold-down-bed-sides-thatll-never-make-it-to-america

I just see this EV market as being a huge money grab on the conscience of the consumer thinking they are doing the right thing for the environment, when in fact if we killed off the huge Automotive manufacturing process in total ( as there are many manufacturers that make the components for the Automotive industry ) we would reduce carbon emissions to well below acceptable levels, so its the big business that is actually the worst offender in this global warming problem, but us as the consumer who are going to be ripped a new @$$hole to stick a band-aid on the problem that will not go away.

Edited by prktkljokr
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37 minutes ago, danny_galaga said:

 

Oh, and don't underestimate electric forklift motors. Here's a 9 second Mazda MX-5 running a pair of forklift motors 🙂

 

 

Yeah but the motor I have came from a cheapo "Live you long time electric forklift", that didn't live long 🤣

I am not expecting any performance whatsoever, its more for the learning process than setting land speed records or saving the planet 😁

Edited by prktkljokr
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[quote]Tried to find the link but could only find this one for $9000 US, so it shows that cheap vehicles can be made ( not pretty, but cheap ) 

 

https://www.thedrive.com/news/39893/gm-china-launches-9000-pickup-with-fold-down-bed-sides-thatll-never-make-it-to-america

[/unquote]

There are heaps of vehicles like that in China. The main reason they can't be sold in the US, or most Western countries in fact is they don't have any DOT approved anything. Even a windscreen needs to pass certain standards (for obvious reasons) but not even the  windscreens on these vehicles is DOT approved.

Edited by danny_galaga
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