My bet to a workmate over the future of cars

[danny_galaga]

Well, coal it is then 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.abc.net.au/article/10886866

 

 

 

Edited November 2, 2022 by danny_galaga

[CandyLand]

Oh yes overlook the compliance and scrutiny the coal industry has been under in recent years, or even the forestry reclamation projects after the fact...Or even the coal ash you just threw in my face being recycled at 40% primarily into concrete, wallboard and fertilizer...Convenience for your "Big bet" I suppose to just ignore the facts and cherry pick the reality-based science.

Edited November 3, 2022 by CandyLand

[CandyLand]

OK, so aparently we are going to just ignore the acid ponds too...Pay up man.

Edited November 3, 2022 by CandyLand

[danny_galaga]

On 03/11/2022 at 8:35 AM, CandyLand said:

Oh yes overlook the compliance and scrutiny the coal industry has been under in recent years, or even the forestry reclamation projects after the fact...Or even the coal ash you just threw in my face being recycled at 40% primarily into concrete, wallboard and fertilizer...Convenience for your "Big bet" I suppose to just ignore the facts and cherry pick the reality-based science.

Did you read the article about Australian coal ash ponds (I live in Australia)? They aren't even lined with anything! Here's a quote

"Sediment in the creek receiving the Eraring ash dam overflows was found to have a selenium concentration of 110 parts per million, more than 55 times the level recommended to protect sensitive fish and birds," Mr Winn said.

 

The NSW EPA warns fishermen not to eat more than three servings of fish from the lake due to high levels of selenium.

 

None of that matters to the bet remember. There merely has to be no IC passenger vehicles available to purchase new in Australia by 2031.

Weve got a while to go. Better dig in 😃

 

[CandyLand]

Perhaps where you live that is a thing as compliance in the industry isn't global, however here in modern day it is not blatant disregard for the environment, quite the opposite, Not to mention that waste is being recycled...Your bet is a damn joke, You are destroying the future of your family and neighbors with your shutting down the futures of our children with your economic implosion...get on with your life.

Edited November 8, 2022 by CandyLand

[Cursed]

16 minutes ago, CandyLand said:

Perhaps where you live that is a thing as compliance in the industry isn't global, however here in modern day it is not blatant disregard for the environment, quite the opposite, Not to mention that waste is being recycled...Your bet is a damn joke, get on with your life.

No need to be harsh, I for one am keen to see who wins! 👍

[Autosteve]

Yes we do well without being to harsh against each other and I think we all enjoy a gentle debate.😏

Edited November 8, 2022 by Autosteve

[Autosteve]

As for the now polluted river, what's the rivers name or has the pond or lake that was created solely for the power station now a popular fishing spot that no one other than the news reporter knows about?.

I question some news storys as they are often a little misleading in Australia.

As for the coal ash itself, bury it if it has no further use. Believe me, the rubbish that goes into Sydney's Tip here at Lucas Heights is far more toxic and somehow I think a human in Sydney generates more than 500kgs to that tip over a 50 year time period.

Imagine the pile of redundant wind turbines, batteries, solar panels we will have to contend with after 50 years?.

Crush that into concrete?

 

[CandyLand]

It is hard to take it seriously being how it was actually propagated on a lie, falsified incomplete data models yet somehow that is overlooked for the "greater good" of society, and on top of that even pointing to the problems of early last century, not of today...Yes we could also talk about the meat packing industry of that time period and even the blue milk, how unionized labor has "saved" the workforce from systemic racism, or even perhaps the dysentery arising from dead horses in the street...But a lie?, come on dude a decade long bet with a workmate over a pipedream utopia should be considered just ridiculous.

[danny_galaga]

On 08/11/2022 at 6:02 PM, Autosteve said:

As for the now polluted river, what's the rivers name or has the pond or lake that was created solely for the power station now a popular fishing spot that no one other than the news reporter knows about?.

I question some news storys as they are often a little misleading in Australia.

As for the coal ash itself, bury it if it has no further use. Believe me, the rubbish that goes into Sydney's Tip here at Lucas Heights is far more toxic and somehow I think a human in Sydney generates more than 500kgs to that tip over a 50 year time period.

Imagine the pile of redundant wind turbines, batteries, solar panels we will have to contend with after 50 years?.

Crush that into concrete?

 

"The southern end of Lake Macquarie in NSW is home to two ageing coal-fired power stations which store a combined total of 60 million tonnes of coal ash in dams next to the lake."

 

Steve, you mustn't fall for the Trumpian habit of automatically saying anything you disagree with is 'fake news' or propaganda. Do you think Lake Macquarie is made up?

[danny_galaga]

I got the coordinates and looked up the power station on Google satellite view and took a screen shot in case you still don't believe it exists Steve 😃

[Autosteve]

12 minutes ago, danny_galaga said:

Lake Macquarie in NSW is home to two ageing coal-fired power stations

Do you think these buildings were built to only last 50 years as in "ageing coal fired power stations". Shit, we better start rebuilding the other +50 year infrastructure such as the Sydney underground rail, all the Sydney water dams, the dams down the Snowy that produce the hydro power, the bridges and the Opera House.

You enjoying the fresh approach by the new government to solve Australia's carbon obligations?.

Double or in most cases triple the price of electricity. Hell, that will work, another massive amount of Australians such as maybe your retired mother or father that will have the choice, power or food so off goes the power to yet another house.

More "renewable" power for the rich at the cost of the poor.

This I think is a very good reason why I think you may loose your bet Danny.

I'm thinking the closer we get to 2030, the less people will have access to electricity based on cost. How do you think such people with no power are likely to react seeing someone having so much power or rather money , they can run there private car on it?.

 

 

[Autosteve]

11 minutes ago, danny_galaga said:

I got the coordinates and looked up the power station on Google satellite view and took a screen shot in case you still don't believe it exists Steve 😃

No I've been near those locations many times but I distinctly remember the water from the power stations going straight into holding ponds where it got reused back into the power station but even if that isn't the case and the water did just go straight into Lake Macquarie totally unfiltered, We in Sydney us to pipe Sydneys sewage straight into the ocean off Sydneys beaches.

The old Union Carbide battery plant was located on the Parramatta river right where the Olympic Village now stands and you guest it, mercury in the river way over health standards that's toxic levels are never going to lower.

The whole village and surrounding parklands have a single lay of "Builder's Plastic" under the top soil that was brought in but as soon as the plastic degrades, everything in that soil above it dies. They come in, dig the contaminated dirt out, replace that portion of the plastic and bury it in fresh top soil, done. Been going on since the place was made and will continue or the place will return to the dead land it once was.

Do you remember what the Gold Coast once looked like?. It was all mangrove swamp. The swamp got buried and that is the Gold coast today many decades later. Still shitloads of methane coming out for centuries to come as you would expect from some much buried vegetation but it's under the city so all is forgotten.

 

[CandyLand]

Steve brings up a good point, Energy is not Free, or clean in any form, And the price will go higher, much higher...This is a long vid, But well worth watching, from an alternative viewpoint As this isn't a recent problem aparently, and we may be far less civilized on the subject than you may think.  https://youtu.be/tFzd2z0Rr1U

Edited November 11, 2022 by CandyLand

[danny_galaga]

The thing you guys are forgetting is that we have to reduce carbon emissions drastically.  In time electrical production costs are going to go down. They've gone up a lot recently because in Australia we still produce must of our electricity using coal and gas. Guess what? The price of those two fuels had gone through the roof in the last year or so. Do you think the power producers will just wear that extra cost? It's another reason the power producers are building up more and more renewables.

Dont worry, once the coal burning companies are mostly renewable, that's where the lobby money will come from- renewables. Then Sky/Fox will tell you renewables is good and coal is bad and you'll finally be in tune with the Zeitgeist 🙂

Really good read about lithium production, both good and bad:

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20221110-how-australia-became-the-worlds-greatest-lithium-supplier

[CandyLand]

You have got to be kidding, Right?...Your actually defending mining 8 different minerals as a lower cost alternative?...I actually laughed so hard I may have peed a little 🤣. 

[CandyLand]

https://youtu.be/aMX1o7QfESo

[danny_galaga]

Steve I think you are being deliberately obtuse about some terms. You don't really think when a coal fired power station is described as aging, it just refers to the building? Like you just shovel coal into a giant empty brick building, and electricity magically comes out the other side. There are thousands of moving parts and systems in there, all wearing out at different rates. At some point,it's not worth the 'spinning plate' act of trying to keep it all going. That's when it is described as aging. I know you know this. In any argument (not that I am arguing about power stations) you have to remove all the irrelevant parts, the neutral parts and the parts that both sides agree on. Occam's Razor. What's left is the argument.

For a really simple example. I say researchers have found that selenium has leached into Lake Macquarie from coal ash holding ponds. You say you remember the water going from the station to the holding ponds. You haven't refuted anything. For one thing, research by scientists must trump your memory of something  (you see that, right?) And secondly, no one disputes that water is being held in ponds. The researchers have found that chemicals from the fly ash ponds has leached into the lake.

If it were a debate, or a court case you would lose right away.

8 minutes ago, CandyLand said:

You have got to be kidding, Right?...Your actually defending mining 8 different minerals as a lower cost alternative?...I actually laughed so hard I may have peed a little 🤣. 

It is and power companies know this. You do know that once you burn coal or gas you can't just burn it again right? But the minerals being used in renewables gets a LOT of work done for the price. The power companies know this, your government knows this. I know this. Only you seem to be in the dark.

[danny_galaga]

On 11/11/2022 at 3:53 AM, CandyLand said:

Steve brings up a good point, Energy is not Free, or clean in any form, And the price will go higher, much higher...This is a long vid, But well worth watching, from an alternative viewpoint As this isn't a recent problem aparently, and we may be far less civilized on the subject than you may think.  https://youtu.be/tFzd2z0Rr1U

Dafuq? Pyramids of Giza? I skipped ahead a bit where she was talking about tailings dams. Like those things you have to store coal fly ash in...

[CandyLand]

Oh really, Convinced of that are you?...Convenient you overlook the fire resistance aspect of the residual waste in building materials, and the specific special interests that have allowed the poor management practices, Including the government...In comparison you are still ignoring the acid pits, and some "Pond liner" isn't going to protect your drinking water from the cyanide you are proposing. (And a whole slew or other nasty chemicals)

But, Ya skip half the video I guess, doesn't really surprise me you would, But if that is true, that is far older than the three thousand years we have been told, (yet another lie) the water damage alone puts it more into the 10k+ realm...BECAUSE OF PREVIOUS CLIMATE CHANGE, A natural evolution of the planet and when that was the last tropical environment cycle of the area, not to mention the technology behind it, that was NOT done with copper chisels obviously...Notice there are no ancient acid pits, or aparent runoff contamination, or did you just skip that part too?

Edited November 11, 2022 by CandyLand

[prktkljokr]

You all do know that anything that man does on Earth is not good for it in one way or another, everything we do has its advantages and disadvantages, I doubt very much if there is anything we can do that will be a total benefit to the Earth and to us at the same time, there are things as humans we just must have just to survive, and at the end of the day everything we have comes from the Earth causing some irreversible damage in some way. 

We cant have it both ways, it just does not work in favour of the Earth or us.

It always surprises me when we have people complaining about climate change, but they will jump in their car and drive to their home, use electricity, water, gas, have a house full of plastic consumables, spray aerosols, put chemicals down the toilet and just live life like everybody else does, but think they are better than me because they think of the environment 🤣🤣🤣

I'm not a greenie, I think I'm more a realist and know that this type of life is not sustainable, but I do know buying a electric vehicle is not the answer as it is as harmful if not more than what we already have, they need huge resources to make that effect the Earth, they need man made power to be "efficient",  and they will need huge resources to recycle later when these cars reach end of life, I can see no real advantage or benefit myself, apart from all the people that think they are doing the right thing because that's what has been brainwashed into them.

 

Edited November 12, 2022 by prktkljokr

[CandyLand]

EDIT...Giggle...

Edited November 12, 2022 by CandyLand

[Autosteve]

13 hours ago, prktkljokr said:

I think I'm more a realist and know that this type of life is not sustainable,

I agree with everything you wrote but this line hammers it home for me.

We use to build major products designed to be overhauled and continue the useful purpose they were built to do for many years.

We now make products designed for one human use only and off to landfill or "recycled" as those saving the planet like to call it.

To me that is just waste and why can't a product through good engineering be made to continue a useful life through easy, cheap spare parts?

13 hours ago, prktkljokr said:

It always surprises me when we have people complaining about climate change, but they will jump in their car and drive to their home, use electricity, water, gas, have a house full of plastic consumables, spray aerosols, put chemicals down the toilet and just live life like everybody else does, but think they are better than me because they think of the environment

Yes, if every person had an on going tally of "personal carbon production" they are responsible for and once exceeded, you pay a penalty or buy credits off someone that still has credits, I think the cult would loose some support.

Got a mate in a state hospital with dramas regarding EVs. Seems some are using power points in the public carpark at the hospital to charge up there EVs while at work.

Can't turn off the supply as it powers the security cameras, duress buttons and help buttons in the building as well. I suggested "tripping over" one of those charge cables as I was made very aware of such public liability claims in shopping centers regarding power cables and tripping costs the shopping center.

Some fool at Mosman was charging an EV on the road running an extension lead through a tree on the nature strip I heard the other day. What could possibly go wrong?.

 

[prktkljokr]

9 hours ago, Autosteve said:

We now make products designed for one human use only and off to landfill or "recycled" as those saving the planet like to call it.

To me that is just waste and why can't a product through good engineering be made to continue a useful life through easy, cheap spare parts?

 

Remember when we used to buy products that lasted ?

This climate change mumbo jumbo cant work, for it to work everything needs to change as we know it, at the moment its just a lip service that the politicians use to get votes and greenies bandy around to make you think about the climate, as we can see they really do nothing to make a real change, lots of bandaids getting put over problems, but the problem is still gushing.

One thing that gets me at the moment, is with the plastic throw away society, ok they ban straws, plates, knifes and forks, plastic bags because of they are 1 use, but my bread, ham, peanut butter, sauce, potato chips, etc, etc, etc all come in plastic 1 use packaging, most things we use are plastic that will one day end up in land fill, it shows they are not really serious by throwing a bandaid fix on a gushing open wound, just go have a look in your recycling bin ( you are a good boy, but where does it go?).

Now when you look at EV's you can clearly see they are made to make money for the people that make them, the people that supply the parts, and then to the power to keep them going.

Money is behind our throw away society, if you sell something once and it never breaks, you wont make any money in the future, so lets make it not last and you will sell them every day for ever.

Perfect example of making money, remember when you could buy a replacement headlight for your car, a standard 7" round headlight would cost you $15, you crash and break it, no biggie $15 and your on your way, well now its $3000 ( current Mazda 6 headlight ), why? there is not $3000 worth of material in it?, because it helps to write the car off when you break it and you buy a new car, we have to keep the money flowing dont we, it shows more and more they want you to throw away your old and buy new, its good for the economy, but not good for the Earth.

If they were serious, the manufacturer of any product would be responsible for recycling their own product at the end of its life.

This will never happen as it would be cost prohibitive not just to sort out, but for the government to police and the manufacturer to implement ( plus it would cost money that they are trying to make not waste ).

So lets all whinge about what we are all doing to the environment, make it look like we are doing something by buying a overpriced EV ( when we are clearly not helping at all ), and get on with making money to survive now in our still throw away society. 

Edited November 12, 2022 by prktkljokr

[Zzap]

52 minutes ago, prktkljokr said:

If they were serious, the manufacturer of any product would be responsible for recycling their own product at the end of its life.

This will never happen as it would be cost prohibitive not just to sort out, but for the government to police and the manufacturer to implement ( plus it would cost money that they are trying to make not waste ).

Good idea, luckily not everyone thought it was never going to happen, and it was bought into legislation in 2020

https://www.legislation.gov.au/Details/C2021C00501

 

Product Stewardship is the term used for getting manufacturers responsible for the full recycling life of their products, and there are a range of mandatory and voluntary things in place

https://www.dcceew.gov.au/environment/protection/waste/product-stewardship/products-schemes