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Apple II Platinum International NTSC 50 to 60HTZ


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How did I know i'd be contradicted :p @mamejay will be happy. What can you tell us about that LCD? what sort of chipset is it running?, is the apple composite directly connected to it?

It looks pretty old like a cctv screen.

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Is an old AWA thing I found a while back. Visual quality isn’t super good for VGA or RGB (has a SCART connector), but has taken everything I’ve thrown at it happily. Kept it because it makes for a great little test screen.. but I’ll grab specs when I get home
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Thanks Darkjedi

Well look at that. I totally forgot I had a crappy 15" Analog LCD TV.

We have some colour which is a start. There is some banding as you can see in the picture.

If I restart the Apple the TV goes black and white till I power cycle the TV so I suspect the NTSC signal is a bit off and the TV cannot work out what it is.

So far the monitors that work with this have been ones I kept for the exact reason of supporting the strangest signals.

 

20190809_083231_resized.thumb.jpg.902543afa95cdf29aff4d2691a3b4a2c.jpg20190809_083353_resized.thumb.jpg.2ffa4919418f1e5778495a3e7d74c1b1.jpg

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Is an old AWA thing I found a while back. Visual quality isn’t super good for VGA or RGB (has a SCART connector), but has taken everything I’ve thrown at it happily. Kept it because it makes for a great little test screen.. but I’ll grab specs when I get home

 

 

Think awa was a big w brand years ago.

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Thanks Darkjedi

 

If I restart the Apple the TV goes black and white till I power cycle the TV so I suspect the NTSC signal is a bit off and the TV cannot work out what it is.

So far the monitors that work with this have been ones I kept for the exact reason of supporting the strangest signals.

 

https://www.aussiearcade.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=151679https://www.aussiearcade.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=151680

 

It may be attributed to the 50hz PAL IOU ( 344-0022 ).

 

I'm going to try the 344-0020 ( 60Hz NTSC IOU ) and see if that solves my problem. I don't have a lot of CRTs to test..

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It may be attributed to the 50hz PAL IOU ( 344-0022 ).

 

I'm going to try the 344-0020 ( 60Hz NTSC IOU ) and see if that solves my problem. I don't have a lot of CRTs to test..

 

Awesome. I have a 344-0022-A which Arcade King suspected it was a 50/60hz chip.

Do you have a NTSC 344-0020 chip already? I might look for one and if cheap enough grab one.

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The information out there seems to be a little sketchy.

 

I don't know if there even is 50/60hz version, I suspect that info comes from the following two pages

 

http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?19522-Causes-of-monitor-quot-sway-quot-(apart-from-AC-ripples)/page3

http://www.applelogic.org/APPLEASICs.html

 

However, the Apple //c 344-0021 part # appears to be 60Hz NTSC spec. I've never seen one in a //e ( would love someone to prove me wrong. )

 

Also the 344-0022 is also found in the PAL models with associated PAL circuitry. ( Y2 4.43361875 MHz for the PAL sub carrier frequency)

 

http://www.applelogic.org/files/3420150loc.JPG

 

One thing is certain, is that the later U.S Apple IIes ( and platinums ) had the 344-0020 IOU which were 60hz NTSC and the 14.31818Mhz crystal at Y1. Those appear to be the main differences between theirs and ours.

 

I don't have the chip yet. I've bought a complete motherboard which has the above IOU socketed.

 

My monitors are still picking up the signal from the Apple IIe as PAL and my scope confirms line frequency of 15.6 ( PAL ) nstead of 15.7 ( NTSC ).

 

pal.thumb.jpg.10793715f78f383a5288d00bc457dad9.jpg

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

In contrast to the above results, I just checked the horizontal frequency coming from my Atari 800 which is an NTSC model I imported from the U.S.

 

IMG_0133.thumb.jpg.3a4d612667671383e62868261fe48ed3.jpg

 

 

I have no problem displaying the picture from my 800 my PVM.

 

 

So I think in addition to replacing the crystal, we most likely need to replace the IOU as well for proper NTSC conversion.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

The NTSC International appears to has the correct horizontal frequency for PAL but I suspect the sub carrier frequency used for the colour might still be 3.57 in a stock machine, should be 4.4mhz for PAL which may explain the reason we are not able to see colour on our standard PAL televisions and monitors.

 

The Apple Colour Composite monitors are designed to deal with that but standard PAL monitors are not going to see it.

 

I just checked the crystal oscillator and dividers, colour clock looks fine for NTSC. But I do have the new crystal in there now.

 

IMG-0132.thumb.jpg.6d300adfd2da3590271bee09ac408527.jpg

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Can you explain why you keep referring to it as PAL? The video signal is not PAL never was PAL. Even the PAL versions of the Apple 2 have an extra crystal, a separate clock and extra circuitry to output a PAL 50 htz signal so does the Atari.

Untitled-3.thumb.jpg.dc81f81217a328cdea84063d30aa73ac.jpg

Just look at the PAL motherboard you posted.

You can't compare an Atari to an Apple II, they way they do colour is chalk and cheese and the Apple is very fussy with its clock as we've discovered.

The NTSC International board is the NTSC 50 htz standard not PAL 50htz. The whole point of this thread is to make an NTSC International motherboard output NTSC 60 htz so those people who don't have the Apple composite monitor can use it on a TV that supports NTSC 60htz and even then there's no guarantee it will work with the monitor you have. This only applies to this motherboard and IOU.

Even my Apple IIc has the 50htz IOU and people still reefer to this model as PAL(even I did) when its not. As I demonstrated a few posts back you need the PAL adapter to make it work on a PAL TV. The composite output on my Apple IIc is NTSC 50htz so colour works without the adapter on my Apple A2m6021x BUT on my 60 htz JVC monitor its black and white as per my very first post in this thread.

Furthermore that link you posted http://members.iinet.net.au/~kalandi/apple/AUG/1995/08%20AUG/MEG80Z.html is about the Meg80Z 1MB RAM expansion and issues with running on 50htz machines, you have to read the whole article what you posted is out of context. What hasn't been taken into account is the 344-0022 is 50/60 so until this board is tested with this memory card and the 14.31818MHz crystal the article is disputable.

 

Sorry, I'm not trying to be rude its just this is getting way too confusing, more so than it should be...my brain hurts

Edited by Arcade King
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IMAG0261.thumb.jpg.46d1333a9ebda4be0dd8363da341f2b2.jpg IMAG0262.thumb.jpg.06aba289e7babfcd34dfedc391046232.jpg

 

Just tried my cheap CCTV LCD which has composite. Left picture is my Megadrive PAL 50 and Right Apple IIgs NTSC 60 composite.

I bought this thing as a cheap test rig monitor, its only 10" but seems to work. Maybe CCTV's LCD are worth a look? I guess they have to work with all sorts of video equipment.

I couldn't use my spare NTSC International board...its got the jailbars of death :( real pissed. now I have to swap over the crystal again in my main board just to try this.

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https://comp.sys.apple2.narkive.com/uyOi7vAj/international-ntsc-apple-iie-motherboard

 

My understanding is that there needs to be a direct connection between the colour subcarrier of 3.58Mhz and the vertical frame rate for most TVs and monitors. Strange combinations leads to the reluctance of many television sets not being able to reproduce NTSC colour.

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I actually think we are getting ntsc50

 

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk

Nah its not mate.

Heres proof.

I just plugged my IIgs composite into my ntsc 50 htz A2M6021x and no colour no sync as expected and yet worked fine on that shitty cctv lcd which was ntsc 60.

Last post for me on the topic. I feel im head butting a brick wall at this point.

Good luck guys. IMAG0263.thumb.jpeg.e472a3909529dd00df00765525ec8fcb.jpeg

 

Sent from my HTC 10 using Aussie Arcade mobile app

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I can only speak for myself here but my LCD TV recognises the signal as PAL ( and most likely my other monitors as well ). I also forgot to mention that it's also not really locking sync properly and fading in and out.

 

IMG-0134.thumb.jpg.873c1bfa39f6516bc697e918510350af.jpg

 

Not sure how that is determined and why but it seems wrong to me.

 

I'll see how I go with the replacement IOU.

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This reminds me of a similar situation with Sega Master System 50/60Hz mods, which no-one performs correctly. In that, a stock Aussie MS outputs PAL 50Hz, which is (incompletely) modded to output PAL 60Hz. Depending on the display, it either works fine or only outputs black and white. CRTs usually aren't fussy with the out of spec signal, modern displays being the ones that can't decipher the signal.

 

I won't go into here as it's unrelated, but you can correctly mod a MS to output 50Hz PAL or 60Hz NTSC.

 

Seems like a similar issue here.

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Doesn’t RGB scart solve that issue on the Master System as well ? I modded a Mega Drive for a mate to switch between ntsc and pal. Obviously no colour on his CM8833 Philips monitor when switched over but we ended up solving that issue by using RGB scart.

 

There were RGB cards made for the Apple II but those are pretty rare.

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Yep, the colour encoding doesn't come into play when utilising RGB, it only affects the composite (and s-video) signals.

 

In the case of the MS, pin 9 of the Sony CXA chip switches between NTSC and PAL output, controlled by setting it high or low. Yet no-one seems to bother with this extra step, they just after the frequency from 50/60Hz via the jumpers on the motherboard.

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In regards to the IIe, the technical reference guide in chapter 7 states that the IOU is responsible for generating the video signals, including vertical blanking. The horizontal signals are derived from a chain of internal counters. So there has to be more to this although itآ’s not entirely clear if the original ASIC is the 50/60hz version or just the 50hz, if it is the 50/60hz then Iآ’m wasting my time with this experiment.

 

http://www.applelogic.org/files/AIIETECHREF3.pdf

 

There was a case where someone replaced the IOU with a different one in a platinum machine and noted horizontal shimmer on the screen and the image was not centred correctly. Replaced the 0022A with 0020A.

 

https://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2010-03-04-diagnosing-apple-ii-platinum-screen-sway.htm

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I checked on my Apple IIe Platinum. The replacement IOU I had put in there was a 344-0020!!! According to the website, this is a U.S. 60hz IOU rather than International 50/60hz one! I checked the photo on the blog posting dealing with the repair and the original IC I had replaced was a 344-0022-B! I checked my other Apple IIe which also has a International NTSC board. Its IOU was 344-0022-A.

Opps!

 

Strangely, the website above lists the 344-0022 as being for the Apple IIc?? However I'm sure that's a mistake or a model specific code as this other site mentions the 344-0022 //e IOUs as being 50Hz PAL! That would be right. My second IIe has it's 344-0022-A soldered in the board and it works properly so I'm sure it's suppose to be there.

 

Although only a replacement would prove it emphatically, I am nevertheless convinced that this incorrect IOU IC replacement is the cause of the image shimmer and non-centering problem.

 

Terry is saying he installed the incorrect IOU 344-0020 and the website he got the information from had it incorrectly listed which is exactly the same conclusion I mentioned in my first post on this thread. THIS website is wrong.

His monitor is the same A2M6021x 50htz NTSC one as mine.

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Is there a test program or image on the Apple 2 range that simulates/displays a standardized color bar pattern, that I can run from a floppy?

The reason I ask is I want to make a few measurements to glean some more info re. what is actually put out of the composite jack on my P.A.L. 2e.

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You could type in a short basic program using plot.

 

Haven’t tested it but it should work. Should print a horizontal line across the screen in all 16 colours.

 

10 GR

20 FOR I=0 TO 15

30 PLOT I,0

40 PLOT I,1

50 COLOR=I

60 NEXT I

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IMG_20190814_144552.thumb.jpg.11259aa50711680724dff4de60ed103d.jpg

I had a look at my faulty spare mobo thats giving me jailbars afternoon so I pulled the good mobo out and the PSU. I had already socketed the ram which made no difference and a LS244 I suspected also no difference. (One of the address lines was being pulled down.)

Turned out to be the CF Rom next to the CPU! pretty annoying because when this fault happened a few months back I swapped out all of the socketed chips from the working board...must have missed this one, so relieved though.

now they are working I could do some more testing.

IMG_20190814_150019.thumb.jpg.45e0c28e20a351fafd0600ebdeafd4f7.jpg IMG_20190814_145221.thumb.jpg.c5f18fc2f623d60d820b907342b4dc11.jpg

 

Check this out, both mother boards working in colour on this crappy 10" Eyoyo LCD! wtf. (No keyboard attached hence the rug test pattern.)

The one with the 14.31818MHz crystal only gives black and white on the NTSC 50 htz A2M6021x monitor (was expected) and both black and white on my Panasonic TV.

Edited by Arcade King
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That's interesting. Great that you got the other board working.

 

I socketed my IOU a couple of days ago and all was working fine whilst playing The Goonies until the machine totally locked up this evening.

 

Appears the onboard RAM has shat itself. Power is good at 4.97v, so I'll have to order some new RAM chips as well.

 

Edit: I realise I have a pair of 4464s on hand that I used to have in my 600xl, it currently has the Antonia board so I can go ahead and install the ram in the Apple IIe.

Edited by palindrome
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finally been having a look into some faulty 2e's. (both pal versions)

The first one had a faulty ram chip and faulty LS374. As far as replacement ram it threw me a bit as I have a drawer of over 100 Drams from the 80's.

Didn't have any 4264's or 4164's though. Ended up using 41256's which is fine but a few of the one's I tried were faulty which was where confusion came in...

Persistence won though, so used the chance to test all the other ram chips in the tray.

 

The other one I am working on so far has had a faulty CD-rom (yeah I laughed at this one too, the first computer using a CDrom?), faulty Video rom, had a 6503 processor installed which was causing grief. Have identified a faulty ram chi which I will replace and see what's happening.

No image on monitor, have sync and address/data lines are swinging between rails o.k.

oh yeah, had a short on the -12V line too... been through the wars this poor old board.

 

another 4 to repair after this one.

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