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The Poor Man's DOF (Tactile Feedback)


RustyCardores
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If you like this Drunken Idea, be sure to check out my 'Virtual Pinball Toppers' at http://www.aussiearcade.com/showthread.php/83000-Virtual-Pinball-Topper

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***NEWS ALERT - December 2017***

 

We have changed our name to SSF (Surround Sound Feedback)

 

We are now on Facebook with our very own Surround Sound Feedback Group

 

 

***** JULY 2017 - NEW DEVELOPMENT!*****

 

Thanks to the efforts of DJRobX, Surround Sound is NOW AVAILABLE in VPX 10.4 Beta and some new tables have already been released to make use of this new feature, while other tables are being recoded by myself to make use of surround sound. **These recoded tables are being released at the table author's discretion, so please do not ask me for copies. Ask them and put the pressure on ;) lol ....It's important that table authors see the demand for surround coded tables.

 

VPX Surround is a game changer for PMD, as we will now be able to apply directional sound & feedback to any position on a table! I have been Beta testing this new development with my current PMD system and it is TOTALLY AMAZEBALLS!!!!

 

Those (like me) with a current "2 Amp - 4 Exciter" PMD system will be able to use this feature, provided that their sound card supports surround sound. New users yet to implement the system, may wish to consider using a single 7.1 surround sound amp or DJRobX's layout, in place of the additional subs required for PMD Mk1 (non-surround)

 

A visual representation of Surround config options...

 

PMD Mk1 (pre surround sound). Also Compatible with PMD Mk2 Surround Sound.

attachment.php?attachmentid=114430&d=1502148337

 

PMD Mk2 Surround Sound - Single Amp (expensive)

attachment.php?attachmentid=114431&d=1502148360

 

PMD Mk2 Surround Sound - Multiple Amps with Windows bass management to singular subwoofer (cheaper & can still utilise PMD Mk1 components)

attachment.php?attachmentid=115382&d=1503988784

 

**EXCITER PLACEMENT: Place them on the cab side wall close to the flipper/playfield level. Keep them about 15cm from the rigid corners of the cab. Too close and you may lose some of the vibes as the cab wall rigidity increases.

 

My links to the parts used. Please note that the Jaycar components listed here are also available in the USA....

 

2 x Lepy 838 Amps https://www.aliexpress.com and search "Lepy 838"

4 (5 if you want one under the lockdown) x 70mm Exciters https://www.jaycar.com.au/70mm-flat-panel-exciter-speaker/p/AS3039

1 x Subwoofer https://www.jaycar.com.au/4-paper-cone-woofer-midrange/p/CW2190 (or https://www.jaycar.com.au/5-paper-cone-woofer-midrange/p/CW2192 if you have space and a little more $)

Plus some speaker wire and a bit of timber to mount the audio sub (bracket it off the back of the cab or run it across from both sides... whatever works in your cab)

 

See also: http://vpuniverse.com/forums/topic/3232-new-vpx-feature-surround-sound-output/

 

So that's the current state of affairs with PMD. The diagrams above are self explanatory and thanks to these, we have found that users now have a much better understanding of PMD and the simplicity of the system.

 

I will continue to update the above section with new developments as they arise.

 

From this point on, you will be reading the development thread (contains installation images). Please note that early recommendations and results contained in this thread may no longer apply to the above PMD Mk2.

 

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ORIGINAL DEVELOPMENT THREAD CONTINUES.....

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*PLEASE NOTE: This thread covers the evolution of Poor Man's DOF (Sound Driven Tactile Feedback), please read to the end, as the PMD found there is far more advanced and effective that what you will find early in this thread.

 

Also, I will update this section with users's PMD reviews as they come in, rather than having you hunt for them through the thread....

 

1: 18mm High Density MDF - "Could be better. Too dense for really good vibe transmission. Exciter placement is critical." (Reported by @RustyCardores)

2: 16 or 18mm Pine (custom lockdown bar) - "Brilliant! Transmits every vibe from the smallest ball rolling to the loudest bumper. Hands on the actual vibe plate is extremely effective." (Reported by @RustyCardores)

3: Plywood (23 year old Judge Dredd) - "Excellent! JayCar Amp and Exciters mounted on side under flipper buttons." (Reported by @Jed)

4: Plywood (original F-14 cab with Dayton Exciters) - "WHAT AN EFFECT ! You can feel every bump, droptarget, kicker, and such, it's just great !" (Reported by @Nemo)

5: 16mm MDF - "I'm using a 16mm MDF CAB and and didn't expect much feel, but F#%cking amaze balls it feels real." (Reported by @DalasJ)

 

And for those of you who couldn't be stuffed reading this thread and just want to jump right in boots 'n all, here is my personal shopping list for the parts needed... (Most parts listed are from Jaycar Australia, but our international readers should easily be able to find matching products from local suppliers. Google is your friend!)

 

2 x Lepy 838 Amps https://www.aliexpress.com and search "Lepy 838"

4 (5 if you want one under the lockdown) x 70mm Exciters https://www.jaycar.com.au/70mm-flat-panel-exciter-speaker/p/AS3039

1 x Subwoofer https://www.jaycar.com.au/4-paper-cone-woofer-midrange/p/CW2190 (or https://www.jaycar.com.au/5-paper-cone-woofer-midrange/p/CW2192 if you have space and a little more $)

Plus some speaker wire and a bit of timber to mount the audio sub (bracket it off the back of the cab or run it across from both sides... whatever works in your cab)

 

Change from $200... how much will depend on what stuff you have laying around. I have heaps of RCA leads/splitters/speaker wire/timber from projects over the years and that has allowed me to keep things around the $150-160 mark.

 

*** PMD Scripts Mods (Table sound & balance tweaks to suit PMD configured pinCabs) are available at http://vpinball.com/VPBdownloads/categories/pmd-sound-driven-tactile-feedback/

 

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Original Post:

 

Doing an update on my vPinCab's tactile feedback today and thought some of you may like to see it.

 

Not having the $$$$ (or the will) to venture down the full on DOF route, I use a Boombox vibration sound driver mounted under my custom lockbar. Until today, I had one driver mounted in the middle, but I have now moved it to the side under my left hand and added a second Boombox under my right (used a 2x splitter on the TV audio out). This of course increases the amount of feedback that I feel.

 

Mechanical sounds have been separated from music/voice in VP's audio options and these are supplied the playfield TV and then on to the Boomboxes.

 

Boombox units (aka X-Vibe3) can be found online (China) for as little as $20 free delivery and they can be installed in less than a minute. If you have been wanting feedback, but are like me and $$$ or motivation has stopped you installing DOF, then I can recommend this method as a cheap & easy alternative.

 

It really is quite effective.... I feel every bump of the ball, I feel the flippers activate, hell I even feel the ball rolling on the table... and I don't think DOF even goes that far does it?

 

The only issue I see for some, is the sound itself. Boomboxes will turn anything into a speaker, but the sound will vary with the material used. Mine sounds great on a timber lockbar, but stainless may sound different. So I wouldn't rule out the need of laminating a bit of ply under the stainless to adjust the sound. #experiment

 

Cheers

 

Rusty

 

Boom1.thumb.jpg.fe082dd8aefaca50eb3096a43d847ece.jpg

Boom2.thumb.jpg.8e01f4818d524f9dd8a5ccc0f3a72f31.jpg

PMD-DIagram-3_DJRobX.thumb.jpg.a272cbd10be5e551cea93fbf6fad25a6.jpg

Edited by RustyCardores
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Excellent idea - I might try it out on my test rig with the view to possibly stocking them for the very purpose you suggest. All good to those who want to go the whole hog with contactors, solenoids, shakers, full on DOF etc but this is a simple and CHEAP alternative for those either not interested in that level of complexity, or just wanting to dip their toes first.

 

I really like your combo lockdown bar/control panel too. How is it held in place?

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Excellent idea - I might try it out on my test rig with the view to possibly stocking them for the very purpose you suggest. All good to those who want to go the whole hog with contactors, solenoids, shakers, full on DOF etc but this is a simple and CHEAP alternative for those either not interested in that level of complexity, or just wanting to dip their toes first.

 

I really like your combo lockdown bar/control panel too. How is it held in place?

 

It's a good alternative to full DOF and as I mentioned, it's effective at covering the vibrations too minor for DOF to handle, so it may be something that you could run alongside DOF as well.

 

The lockdown is routed to sit over the cab sides and as seen in the underside pic, there are two stops that prevent it moving backwards.

 

It's then held in place by two springs that get pulled down inside to hooks either side of my coin door.

 

I was going to screw it in place from the inside, but decided on this quick release method.

 

 

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It's a good alternative to full DOF and as I mentioned, it's effective at covering the vibrations too minor for DOF to handle, so it may be something that you could run alongside DOF as well.

 

The lockdown is routed to sit over the cab sides and as seen in the underside pic, there are two stops that prevent it moving backwards.

 

It's then held in place by two springs that get pulled down inside to hooks either side of my coin door.

 

I was going to screw it in place from the inside, but decided on this quick release method.

 

EDIT: there are other larger vibration drivers that you could use. I went with these because I had them just sitting around.

 

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I missed this thread, nice idea. I might try a couple of those in conjunction with my flipper activated solenoids, and not have to worry about all the coding needed for DOF.

 

To me, that's the biggest issue - all the retrospective DOF coding and replacement tables needed to accommodate full F/feedback hardware.

 

Seems to me use a couple of these as you have used them in conjunction with some easy flipper activated solenoids (also a small cost) and you needn't worry about code...always the most annoying and time consuming bit!

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I missed this thread, nice idea. I might try a couple of those in conjunction with my flipper activated solenoids, and not have to worry about all the coding needed for DOF.

 

To me, that's the biggest issue - all the retrospective DOF coding and replacement tables needed to accommodate full F/feedback hardware.

 

Seems to me use a couple of these as you have used them in conjunction with some easy flipper activated solenoids (also a small cost) and you needn't worry about code...always the most annoying and time consuming bit!

 

I'm now running these along with a sub just for the lower tones. Together they provide a nice alternative. Little bumps as the ball hits things and vibrations on wire ramps etc.... I can feel them all. :)

 

 

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I'm now running these along with a sub just for the lower tones. Together they provide a nice alternative. Little bumps as the ball hits things and vibrations on wire ramps etc.... I can feel them all. :)

 

 

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Could you please send a link to the products ? I am defintiely going to do this on my cab.

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I'm yet to test this but I'm wondering how they all hook up to PC - are they USB or do they need to be connected to the audio out from the soundcard?

 

Audio from your secondary sound device (be it card, USB sound card or Playfield TV's audio out) using 3.5mm audio jack.

 

Power comes from USB. Can be from computer, power board or regular phone charger type USB plugged into your power board.

 

 

 

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Audio from your secondary sound device (be it card, USB sound card or Playfield TV's audio out) using 3.5mm audio jack.

 

 

 

Like most in my cab I use sattelite speakers in the head and a sub in the body. So you're saying these split woofers need to be connected to a different audio out than from your main sound card? How does windows handle that given you usually have to select one output for sound?

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Like most in my cab I use sattelite speakers in the head and a sub in the body. So you're saying these split woofers need to be connected to a different audio out than from your main sound card? How does windows handle that given you usually have to select one output for sound?

 

In VP audio prefs you can select separate audio outputs for sounds and mechanical sounds. Send mechanicals to the second audio device. If your playfield TV is connected via HDMI then that will work as your secondary device to plug the Feedback into.

 

 

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In VP audio prefs you can select separate audio outputs for sounds and mechanical sounds. Send mechanicals to the second audio device. If your playfield TV is connected via HDMI then that will work as your secondary device to plug the Feedback into.

 

 

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Interesting....

 

Both my TV's are HDMI but I run a sub from the computer sound card, nothing coming from TV's themselves (plus i have removed their speakers..) though I could run them both from the 3.5mm audio out jack from one of the TV's as you suggest.

 

I've never bought from aliexpress before... how long did these take to arrive ? Not that i'm in any rush, just curious.

 

Cheers,

J

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Yes nothing comes out your TVs unless you point it that way in audio prefs. And yes you don't need the speakers, just an audio out to feed the Xvibes.

 

2 to 4 weeks from Ali normally. I have purchased quite a bit off there and never had an issue. :)

 

 

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I made another mod to this.

 

I moved the feedback sub up to the back of the cab (inside)... I get more of a base sound now as it resonates from the back, as apposed to what I was hearing from it's original position just behind the coin door. This shift also means that I get some direction sound from the back of the cab and this helps add realism to the top bumpers.

 

I've also removed the springs that "tightly" held my lockbar down and replaced them with strips of double sided tape on the sides of the cab where the lockbar makes contact. So now that the lockdown is not absolutely rigidly mounted to the cab, it can vibrate more freely with the little bit of "soft mount" that the tape gives. This has resulted in a deeper sound and a significant boost in the feel transmitted.

 

I would now rate the effect from my Poor Man's DOF near perfect and have zero desire to venture towards full DOF. :)

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I'm thinking of trying something a little different on my second cab.

 

Rather than use X-Vibes, I'm considering adding one of these to each side of the cab, immediately below the flipper buttons, rather than something up under the lockbar. Being much bigger drivers I'm hoping that they will be easier to feel, even for those with a stainless lockdown...

 

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1-pcs-small-tactile-transducer-mini-bass-shaker-bass-vibration-speaker-for-home-theater/32232242123.html

 

There are a couple of smaller / cheaper ones on Ali al well, but I like how this one is fully fixed. I think that may help it transmit more "vibe".

 

I was also considering driving them with something like this... https://www.aliexpress.com/item/HY-502-USB-FM-Audio-Car-Digital-Stereo-Amplifier-Radio-MP3-Speaker-LED-Hi-Fi-2/32692342817.html

 

I would still have the option to add a small sub down the back of the cab like I have in Cab1, but I'll wait and see if it's needed.

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Rusty,

 

I just received basically the same Dayton TT25-16 transducers for my cab. You can get them from an Australian company and even cheaper (shipping was $9 for me) here: http://www.wagneronline.com.au/tt25-16/ps/

They arrived the day after I ordered with standard shipping.

 

Only have them literally sitting on the bottom of my cab at present (driven by a Lepai 2.1 amp), but even that is enough to feel the vibration. Can't wait to screw them to the sides of the cab just near the flipper buttons.

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Rusty,

 

I just received basically the same Dayton TT25-16 transducers for my cab. You can get them from an Australian company and even cheaper (shipping was $9 for me) here: http://www.wagneronline.com.au/tt25-16/ps/

They arrived the day after I ordered with standard shipping.

 

Only have them literally sitting on the bottom of my cab at present (driven by a Lepai 2.1 amp), but even that is enough to feel the vibration. Can't wait to screw them to the sides of the cab just near the flipper buttons.

 

Awesome! I'll place the order asap! ;)

 

 

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Rusty,

 

I just received basically the same Dayton TT25-16 transducers for my cab. You can get them from an Australian company and even cheaper (shipping was $9 for me) here: http://www.wagneronline.com.au/tt25-16/ps/

They arrived the day after I ordered with standard shipping.

 

Only have them literally sitting on the bottom of my cab at present (driven by a Lepai 2.1 amp), but even that is enough to feel the vibration. Can't wait to screw them to the sides of the cab just near the flipper buttons.

 

which ones did you get, there are a couple of different models - was it the 8Ω model is for wiring multiples ? also, what amp would be sufficient for these ? thanks :)

 

edit: what I should have asked was: can I wire these into my existing subwoofer/amp system do you reckon ?it's just a standard logitech sub + sattelites type thing.

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Do you get much audible sound from these transducers like I do with the X-Vibes, or is it just the bass vibes and you run regular speakers as well?

 

Audible sound fortunately. Although it is slightly muffled, but as I said, only sitting on floor of cab at present.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

which ones did you get, there are a couple of different models - was it the 8Ω model is for wiring multiples ? also, what amp would be sufficient for these ? thanks :)

 

edit: what I should have asked was: can I wire these into my existing subwoofer/amp system do you reckon ?it's just a standard logitech sub + sattelites type thing.

 

I got the exact model as per the link, TT25-16, which is 16 ohm apparently. Have wired them to an Lepai LP-168HA 2.1 amp. Have a separate system for the other sounds, with the speakers in the back box.

 

Thinking about getting a 5.1 amp and another pair, located at the back of the cab. Not sure how sounds are separated though.

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Audible sound fortunately. Although it is slightly muffled, but as I said, only sitting on floor of cab at present.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

 

 

I got the exact model as per the link, TT25-16, which is 16 ohm apparently. Have wired them to an Lepai LP-168HA 2.1 amp. Have a separate system for the other sounds, with the speakers in the back box.

 

Thinking about getting a 5.1 amp and another pair, located at the back of the cab. Not sure how sounds are separated though.

 

Not sure how or even if you could use the 5.1 to split the sound around the cab?? But if you work it out let us know.

 

As for muffled sound.... if it stays that way once they are up under the fluppers bro (sorry just had a "Beached as" moment lol), perhaps they can be supplemented by a small set of normal speakers inside the cab as well? At the moment I am supplementing my x-vibes with a sub and it's this combination that has taken things to a new level.

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Not sure how or even if you could use the 5.1 to split the sound around the cab?? But if you work it out let us know.

 

 

 

As for muffled sound.... if it stays that way once they are up under the fluppers bro (sorry just had a "Beached as" moment lol), perhaps they can be supplemented by a small set of normal speakers inside the cab as well? At the moment I am supplementing my x-vibes with a sub and it's this combination that has taken things to a new level.

 

 

This is what I want to do... I've always had a sub in the cab and sattelites in the head, I'd be looking to add these near the flippers. So you think a separate amp altogether would be better than just wiring them into my existing sound setup ?

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This is what I want to do... I've always had a sub in the cab and sattelites in the head, I'd be looking to add these near the flippers. So you think a separate amp altogether would be better than just wiring them into my existing sound setup ?

 

Definitely need a seperate amp I think, as you will be running totally seperate levels of volume and bass etc. Plus those little amps are tiny and as cheap as.

 

 

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Thinking about it overnight, I'm going to grab one of the amps that has the seperate sub output and level control. It will just broaden the options a little for me, as you never really know the best config until you get this stuff in the cab.

 

 

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Definitely need a seperate amp I think, as you will be running totally seperate levels of volume and bass etc. Plus those little amps are tiny and as cheap as.

 

 

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Good point, I'll have a look back through the thread as you linked the amps I think earlier

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