Is workchoices really that bad for Aus ??

Just thought I would open this can of worms to find out everyone elses opinion.

Personally I dont think its such a bad thing :tomato . now just hang on a sec for me to explain..

I tend to think workchoices is necessary if Australia is going to compete in the worldwide marketplace. At the moment it cannot due to the high award rates. Car companies and other manufacturers are forced overseas due to the high running costs in this country. If a large factory closes down and moves overseas there is an uproar but what choice does it have? If it stays in this country it gets run out of business buy the opposition.

I worked for over a year on a workplace agreement (which seems to me what workchoices is all about) and for sure the terms were not great but I had an income and it kept me alive. When I had had enough I quit and moved on, people dont seem to realise that no job is compulsory.

Sacking workers to employ them again under a workplace agreement was against the law and those companies got dragged over the coals for it.

Here is an example. I got a quote to produce a component in Aus and a quote from China. The australian quote was $15 and the Chinese quote was .88c . I would love to support my local economy but thats just rediculous. Wonder why companies are going over seas...

Perhaps there is more to it then what I understand, if so please explain.

'Puts eye and groin protection on'...

As someone who has specfic skills that are invaluable to an employer and also a backbone to fight for what I am worth I thought workchoices was good because it allowed people like me the chance to negotiate a contract with an employer for what i believe I am worth.

But after thinking about it, there are alot of people out there who are very submissive and self depreciating when it comes to their skills and an a-hole employer could easily screw them over.

It is unfortunate that many companies/people just arnt happy to take the middle gound and a good compromise, there are too many out there who want it all and are prepared to screw others to get it.

So all in all, I dont think it was a great policy (from my understanding of it anyway :) )

I never really understood what work choices was all about anyway, have been on an individual contract at every place I have worked in the last ten years or so.

Personally I prefer the individual contract model, have seen people who were unable to get promotions or payrises because they were locked into the HR model of being a Level X employee. It led to some guys in the dept being paid literally twice the amount of the permanent guys locked to the contract for their level.

Chicken or the egg... Is cost of living high because wages are high or are wages high because of the cost of living??

I moved to Darwin to make 3 times the money I was making down south, but it costs 3 times the amount to live here so im really not that much better off. My brother in law works in Port Headland and makes double my wage but living costs are double mine. Seems to me that the higher the wage the higher the living costs, if you cant sell real estate because people cant afford it the prices can only come down so I beleive wages raise living expenses.

Manufacturers are only going over seas for cheaper materials and products because thats what the majority of consumers in this country buy. You have companies like Fisher & Paykel & Electrolux (made in Aus and NZ but starting to really struggle) competing against companies like LG. I think its safe to say LG is winning this battle, and its not because there product is better.

Australia has high everything: High wages, high groceries, high housing prices, high rent, high manufacturing costs. That unfortunately can't change, neither can our wages.

For the majority, life in Australia is still good - we have a privileged life here, compared to many other countries. Workchoices can possibly be a good thing is some areas, most especially the Public Service; which is still after all these years, full of people that do bugger-all. I've seen it in many departments in my previous life as a consultant. And the problem is, it's extremely difficult to sack a public servant. There is a huge amount of waste in Government departments and it's everyone's taxes funding it.

Ah but hang on... would work choices even apply to the Government sector ? :unsure

So there's maybe some areas that could benefit in the long run from it. I can see however it is open to exploitation most especially in the private sector.

Australia has high everything: High wages, high groceries, high housing prices, high rent, high manufacturing costs. That unfortunately can't change, neither can our wages.

So if wages where low then everything else would have to come down also, groceries would come down due to less overhead costs, house prices would come down otherwise they just wouldnt get sold, rent would come down and manufacturing costs will come down. I think this may be why John Howard pushed so hard for it, wages have an incremental effect on every other thing. It all sounds so simple ;)

yeah, workchoices has to apply to the public sector if it is to work

the public sector is out of control earning about 50% more for the same work in private and they have all sorts of unfunded entitlements

if this continues, the private sector will slowly get crushed and so Australia's borrowing will increase and the road to socialism continues

i can see now what howard was trying to achieve, if australia is to become competitive we have to have efficient lean government too

is it more important that your house value stays up, or have a job? depends whether you take a short or long term view

No it really wasn't that bad, it essentially diminished the powers of the unions, and that's who ran the scare campaign. The only workers who got screwed were unskilled labour, which make up less than 10% of the workforce. The majority of other workers would have benefited in some areas, and been worse off in others.

The other major problem is how badly the current system treats small business. There is zero flexibility under the current system, and as small business is reliant on flexibility (margins are nothing compared to big business), the current system results in fewer people being employed. Small business employs 40% of Australian workers, but the government is quite happy to tar all business with the same brush.

My first hand example - my staff wanted half days on Friday, which suited me fine so long as they do the hours at some other time during the week. This is no longer legal, so once their contracts expire they'll have to go back to working Friday afternoons :(

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Obviously the sole aim of Workchoices was to lower wages.

What I don't understand is if we are such a "lucky country" and can afford to lower wages, why are we being bombarded by the media ,ad nauseum, to save money by shopping around, buying generic, and how to feed a family on five dollars a day FFS.

If we can afford it there should be no need for this.

Chicken or the egg... Is cost of living high because wages are high or are wages high because of the cost of living??

 

I moved to Darwin to make 3 times the money I was making down south, but it costs 3 times the amount to live here so im really not that much better off. My brother in law works in Port Headland and makes double my wage but living costs are double mine. Seems to me that the higher the wage the higher the living costs, if you cant sell real estate because people cant afford it the prices can only come down so I beleive wages raise living expenses.

 

Manufacturers are only going over seas for cheaper materials and products because thats what the majority of consumers in this country buy. You have companies like Fisher & Paykel & Electrolux (made in Aus and NZ but starting to really struggle) competing against companies like LG. I think its safe to say LG is winning this battle, and its not because there product is better.

I'm from Darwin and I've never understood how people think it s THAT much more expensive to live. THREE times as expensive? Was there for the week just passed. I live in Brisbane now. I could hardly tell groceries were any different in price. Fuel was probably a little more expensive, but only a few cents. Rent maybe a little more too. I admit that house prices have moved more than Brisbane. I earn $21 an hour nowadays. I would LOVE to move back to Darwin if suddenly the same job gives me $63 an hour :D

On the subject of the topic, we require a standard of living that I believe a system like Work Choices erodes...

The more money people have the more money they spend it seems :unsure.

That's the way capitalism is supposed to work, and Australia, we're standing in it.

Still, I want to keep my 360/Wii/Arcade Machine. Well, if pressed you can take the 360 and the Wii....but you're not taking my Cab :D

I'm from Darwin and I've never understood how people think it s THAT much more expensive to live. THREE times as expensive? Was there for the week just passed. I live in Brisbane now. I could hardly tell groceries were any different in price. Fuel was probably a little more expensive, but only a few cents. Rent maybe a little more too. I admit that house prices have moved more than Brisbane. I earn $21 an hour nowadays. I would LOVE to move back to Darwin if suddenly the same job gives me $63 an hour :D

I didnt say it was 3 times more expensive to live in Darwin for everyone, but it definatley was for us, so it seemed relevant to the increased wage I am earning. We were paying $200 a week on a house mortgage down south and now we pay $850 on a house half the size. When we first moved in up here we rented a 2 bedroom unit that was $650 a week, was a fair shock I can tell ya. A massive land/rent shortage has ment people have to pay minimum of $320K for a 600 square metre block of land. crazy stuff. Just gotta feel lucky we invested all those years ago.

If you are a trady Danny $63 an hour probably isnt far off the mark ;)

I didnt say it was 3 times more expensive to live in Darwin for everyone, but it definatley was for us, so it seemed relevant to the increased wage I am earning. We were paying $200 a week on a house mortgage down south and now we pay $850 on a house half the size. When we first moved in up here we rented a 2 bedroom unit that was $650 a week, was a fair shock I can tell ya. A massive land/rent shortage has ment people have to pay minimum of $320K for a 600 square metre block of land. crazy stuff. Just gotta feel lucky we invested all those years ago.

 

If you are a trady Danny $63 an hour probably isnt far off the mark ;)

Pity you didn't have the contacts. My sister and I are renting out our house in Ludmilla. 984 square metres, 3 bedrooms. We only just increased the rent to $400 a week. The house is worth roughly $600,000. I guess a place like Darwin, it's a huge advantage to be in the know.

Of course you may also be comparing your mortgage of when you lived south some years ago to the mortgage you have now in Darwin. If you were to buy back your house down south, what would the mortgage be? Surely more than $200? I live in a 2 bedroom unit in Brisbane, and I know it's in the region of $300,000. According to this, that would cost over $400 a week

http://www.ratebusters.com.au/home-loan-calculators.asp?calc=blr

Also, like anywhere else, the closer you live to the city, the higher the prices. How does your current location compare to where you used to live?

I still dispute that it costs 3 times as much to live there than other places (major cities anyway, if you lived just past the black stump in Woop Woop, it's hardly a fair comparison). According to your calculations, an equivalent to my house in Darwin would only be worth about $200,000 in Brisbane! And bearing in mind both the unit I live in now and my house in Darwin are roughly the same distance to the CBD...

And I also dispute $63 an hour being a normal trademans pay. Perhaps if you worked out at a mine. I'm just trying to find relevant info now, because I'm happy to be wrong about that. I did a trade in Darwin, but I only worked in town. When I quit that and went to work at Bunnings, there wasn't much difference!

Just another thing. Your statement ' Seems to me that the higher the wage the higher the living costs' doesn't make sense. You are only looking at your own situation. If you are earning good money (and I bet it was more than I ever earnt in darwin) then I can make this statement 'Seems to me that the LOWER the wage the higher the living costs' since two people in the same city, but with different pays, are still subject to the same living costs...

Pity you didn't have the contacts. My sister and I are renting out our house in Ludmilla. 984 square metres, 3 bedrooms. We only just increased the rent to $400 a week. The house is worth roughly $600,000. I guess a place like Darwin, it's a huge advantage to be in the know.

Same with everything really. Bet the tennants dont plan to leave anytime soon at that price...

Of course you may also be comparing your mortgage of when you lived south some years ago to the mortgage you have now in Darwin. If you were to buy back your house down south, what would the mortgage be? Surely more than $200? I live in a 2 bedroom unit in Brisbane, and I know it's in the region of $300,000. According to this, that would cost over $400 a week.

Most deffinatley, average cost to rent in Darwin was $500+ a week when a survey was done about 3 to 6 months ago. Here are some articles related to this. One of the writters makes the statement that Darwin cannot be compared to other capital city's.

Dearer then New York and London

http://www.ntnews.com.au/article/2010/05/30/151561_ntnews.html

http://www.ntnews.com.au/article/2010/04/14/139451_realestate.html

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/property/resources-boom-makes-darwin-a-different-kind-of-capital-as-prices-defy-predictions/story-e6frg9gx-1225886363107

Also, like anywhere else, the closer you live to the city, the higher the prices. How does your current location compare to where you used to live?..

True, thats why I was refering to my own experience, understanding everyone elses would'nt be the same..

I still dispute that it costs 3 times as much to live there than other places (major cities anyway, if you lived just past the black stump in Woop Woop, it's hardly a fair comparison). According to your calculations, an equivalent to my house in Darwin would only be worth about $200,000 in Brisbane! And bearing in mind both the unit I live in now and my house in Darwin are roughly the same distance to the CBD..

Once again I was talking of my own experience, to start deducting averything by 3 after making a generalised statement about my own experience and say its not perfect maths seems a little over the top to me..

And I also dispute $63 an hour being a normal trademans pay. Perhaps if you worked out at a mine. I'm just trying to find relevant info now, because I'm happy to be wrong about that. I did a trade in Darwin, but I only worked in town. When I quit that and went to work at Bunnings, there wasn't much difference!

Seems odd that you would dispute something you admit you dont know to much about, but I guess Im going to have to explain myself anyway...

I currently work in Darwin and I deal with tradesman everyday, also being a trady myself my finger is always on the pulse with whats going on. local Jobs for qualified sparkies/fridgies etc get advertised in the paper up here for $80000+ plus car plus phone, and these jobs generally dont get filled due to lack of interest... Mining jobs are also big money up here but doesnt that just enforce my initial observation; Wages=living costs? Things have changed dramatically over the last 5 years..

Just another thing. Your statement ' Seems to me that the higher the wage the higher the living costs' doesn't make sense. You are only looking at your own situation. If you are earning good money (and I bet it was more than I ever earnt in darwin) then I can make this statement 'Seems to me that the LOWER the wage the higher the living costs' since two people in the same city, but with different pays, are still subject to the same living costs...

Yes, but im talking about the big picture here. If all the people in the city and across the country where on lower wages how could living costs stay high? houses would have to come down in price until they where at a level that people could afford them.

Like I say, I wa happy to be wrong about tradesmens pay, although according to my calculator, 63 x 40 x 52 = 131040 :unsure

So it seems that for you, your life costs 3 times as much in Darwin, but you get paid 3 times as much. This is not true of most people. Your personal experience is not driving inflation. This is where the problem with your original statement lies. It's two statements in one. But unrelated.

I think we can both agree you wouldn't want to be working in Mcdonalds in Karratha :o

"In Baynton and Nickol, suburbs of the Karratha region, typical houses cost more than $800,000, but investors can still get rental returns above 10 per cent because Karratha's median weekly rent is $1600."

:D

Oh, and there's no point comparing house prices in the US to Australia. their economy is shot. Some places in the US, once vibrant suburbs are completely empty, and scavengers are stripping copper wiring and pipes out of vacant houses. That's Mad Max shit!

Like I say, I wa happy to be wrong about tradesmens pay, although according to my calculator, 63 x 40 x 52 = 131040 :unsure

Thats why I said the following...

...$63 an hour probably isnt far off the mark ;)...

As you can see I said "isnt far off the mark". $80000 wage and a car which would be worth another 20k a year to ya would put you at $100k, if you went on call every few weeks you would easily make another $30k..

So it seems that for you, your life costs 3 times as much in Darwin, but you get paid 3 times as much. This is not true of most people. Your personal experience is not driving inflation. This is where the problem with your original statement lies. It's two statements in one. But unrelated.

No matter where you go in this country, if average wages are high then so is the cost of living and vice versa, I used Darwin as an example as that is my experience. You surely have to agree that if everyone in the country was making $1 a year house prices wouldnt be up around $500000, they would have to come down to suit the market. A bit extreme an example but thats the point im trying to make, houses will only keep increasing as long as people can afford to by them.

I think we can both agree you wouldn't want to be working in Mcdonalds in Karratha :o

 

"In Baynton and Nickol, suburbs of the Karratha region, typical houses cost more than $800,000, but investors can still get rental returns above 10 per cent because Karratha's median weekly rent is $1600."

 

:D

Port Headland right next door which includes BP mining, massive average wages so of course rent will be high. I can still stick to my original theory that higher average wages = higher living costs.. ;)

Oh, and there's no point comparing house prices in the US to Australia. their economy is shot. Some places in the US, once vibrant suburbs are completely empty, and scavengers are stripping copper wiring and pipes out of vacant houses. That's Mad Max shit!

Yes, but the article includes London..

Background.......school.....work short time...dole...travel.....dole....work....turn 20yrs then work for 20+ years non stop and going. (2 long term jobs)

My Choice, awesome...I am employable even without a trade, lucky me, if i was cross eyed or had a stutter I might find interviews or pay negotiations a struggle.

Only those who are very confident support work choices, they are not scared to loose their jobs, lucky them.

Union member 20 years.....Rep for 10 years........negotiated 4 EBA's.............not a yob, but a worker who can see it from both sides and tries to help them come together.

When you think "workchoices" please remember your good friend who doesn't get on with his boss.

Work here, or don't ? you have not left yet, why should we give you a pay rise?

Balance of power, unions protect, you want to ensure your job, or just your car?

Don't get me wrong, I'm in the middle, I want my shares/super to go up too, but not to the detriment of those that have it tough already.

Perhaps I have a Labor look about me? but I have not met anyone who admits to voting Liberal, I think maybe they are embarrassed.

dungbeetle46...your example is a great one...that is the kind of employment verbal contract that suits many people. I think small business should be able to employ like that, but only a few employees. They should need to submit the agreed contract to an external board, who might accept $8 and one free coffee per hour. Acceptance might keep it open, and reduce fraud, maybe.

I'm Labor, I work in a mine, and I support the mining tax. Our resource profit should remain here, multinationals are buying our mines, fiddling the books, running the mines at a loss, shipping the loss out without tax. Refining the loss and selling it back to us for big money.........OMFG I hope you didn't vote Liberal./rant

Perhaps I have a Labor look about me? but I have not met anyone who admits to voting Liberal, I think maybe they are embarrassed.

You must have your head in the sand (or somewhere else) then, I voted liberal and have done so for the last couple of elections.

Maybe the people you have asked felt intimidated, maybe you are a union yobbo looking to pick a political fight with anyone who disagrees so its easier for them to say that they didnt vote liberal.

You made some good points with your post but then decend to the usual liberal/labor bullshit at then end which made your points seem polarized rather than from someone who is "a worker who can see it from both sides and tries to help them come together."

Hey Mango, just re read my post this morning, actually I'm surprised it's so coherent considering the time and how many drinks I had consumed :)

Yeah I agree with you, and that's sort of what I was saying, people don't tell me they voted Liberal, and it must because they can tell I will disagree.

I would have voted Green, I usually do as do most of my friends, but I voted Labor this time to give them more strength as I knew it would be close against Liberal.

I don't profess to having all the answers, or being fully aware of all the issues, just a bloke trying to have a go and keep things fair.

What turned me so strongly against Liberal this time around was Tony and his 1950's churchie attitude towards immigration and women etc etc.

I thought Julia being openly agnostic was a great step forward for Australia. I don't want our leaders working for God, I want them working for the people of Australia.

Hmmmm...it's hard to summarize one's political views in a quick post without coming across as a redneck. LOL, but I really don't think i am one :)

Sorry to be so polarized...............perhaps you can enlighten me?

P.S. I don't think Wilfred would have voted Liberal ;)

I don't want our leaders working for God, I want them working for the people of Australia.

:D