balls Posted October 10, 2017 Share Posted October 10, 2017 Hi all, I've been asked by a local who is opening an arcade to put some of my pins there onsite. I am wondering if anyone can add some info about this. I would like to, but fear that a few months down the track the doors might close and can't get my pins back. I'm just wondering what the usual procedure would be if any? Obviously sign something. Any input is appreciated. Balls Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Arcade King Posted October 10, 2017 Administrators Share Posted October 10, 2017 I'd be tasking plenty of pictures of your machines, serial numbers etc and make sure you get a decent cut of the profits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason1 Posted October 10, 2017 Share Posted October 10, 2017 Three words that you need to consider. public Liability Insurance. dont do that, then you put everything you own at risk. sadly things arent as easy as they used tobe with this sort of stuff. allot of red tape and legal BS you need to consider. I have public Liability to cover a Simple A frame that sits out the front of my shop, just incase some idiot runs into it and hurts them selves. thats how bad it is Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lou Posted October 10, 2017 Share Posted October 10, 2017 Hi all, I've been asked by a local who is opening an arcade to put some of my pins there onsite. I am wondering if anyone can add some info about this. I would like to, but fear that a few months down the track the doors might close and can't get my pins back. I'm just wondering what the usual procedure would be if any? Obviously sign something. Any input is appreciated. Balls i would go the in's and out's on how it all runs but a while ago i started a thread on it long story short i had to buy the machines back - your agreement with the owner means jack at the end on the day the only thing that matters is that the owner is honest enough to tell you he's going under so you can get the machines out but some don't and that's how the problems start. heres the link - i hope it helps you understand it more.. good luck https://www.aussiearcade.com/showthread.php/69038-Personal-Properties-Securities-for-arcade-operators?highlight=ppsr PPSR Personal Property Securities Register link https://www.ppsr.gov.au Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason1 Posted October 10, 2017 Share Posted October 10, 2017 i would go the in's and out's on how it all runs but a while ago i started a thread on it long story short i had to buy the machines back - your agreement with the owner means jack at the end on the day the only thing that matters is that the owner is honest enough to tell you he's going under so you can get the machines out but some don't and that's how the problems start. heres the link - i hope it helps you understand it more.. good luck https://www.aussiearcade.com/showthread.php/69038-Personal-Properties-Securities-for-arcade-operators?highlight=ppsr PPSR Personal Property Securities Register link https://www.ppsr.gov.au so you didnt insure your machine? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lou Posted October 10, 2017 Share Posted October 10, 2017 Three words that you need to consider. public Liability Insurance. very grey area. public Liability is on the building/premises and not on a single item - if that was the case every chair/table would need separate cover if you are hiring outdoors in a public place that's a different story - - - Updated - - - so you didnt insure your machine? only on theft or fire - no insurance covers liquidator lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason1 Posted October 10, 2017 Share Posted October 10, 2017 very grey area. public Liability is on the building/premises and not on a single item - if that was the case every chair/table would need separate cover if you are hiring outdoors in a public place that's a different story I had a dvd vending machine a few years ago it had public liability, theft, damages, and also if it caught fire and burnt the IGA it was kept at down I wouldnt loose everything I own dont under estimate how important the insurance side of all this is these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lou Posted October 10, 2017 Share Posted October 10, 2017 I had a dvd vending machine a few years ago it had public liability, theft, damages, and also if it caught fire and burnt the IGA it was kept at down I wouldnt loose everything I own in 20 years of operating 100s and 100s of sits i never had that problem until the liquidator got greedy and PPSR came in to play a lot has to do with the business owner claiming everybody else owned everything bar him when he goes under Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason1 Posted October 10, 2017 Share Posted October 10, 2017 (edited) in 20 years of operating 100s and 100s of sits i never had that problem until the liquidator got greedy and PPSR came in to play a lot has to do with the business owner claiming everybody else owned everything bar him when he goes under yup sadly it only takes one incident, its a very hard case for a liquidator to claim that machine as his when you have insurance papers to back it up as yours. If you get a fire from your machine and burn and entire building down, I very much doubt the sites insurance will bail you out, Im sure their lawyer would make sure of that. Always been something Ive had concerns with when siting any thing on some one else's premises shame that is how it is these days, and Im not sure how worth it is to run the gauntlet But in fairness if some ones machine burnt down My business, I would be going after them, well my insurance company would and not only that, if the establishment burnt down, or flooded and was destroyed and was not your machines fault, It would be hard to say if the business that is siting it would pay for your replacement, or what insurance if any they have A new machine is $12k these days business has a stupid amount of red tape, big and small Edited October 10, 2017 by jason1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pinlock5 Posted October 10, 2017 Share Posted October 10, 2017 There is a lot of very intelligent information written in response to balls question, from some very experienced people. I hope everyone undertaking this venture would consider. All I can offer you on top of this mate after 20 years of running my own businesses is if it doesn't feel right DON'T do it. Every situation is different, nothing ventured nothing gained. Sent from my iPhone using Aussie Arcade Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silverbak Posted October 10, 2017 Share Posted October 10, 2017 If you have concerns, don't do it. Follow your gut instinct Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lou Posted October 10, 2017 Share Posted October 10, 2017 yup sadly it only takes one incident, its a very hard case for a liquidator to claim that machine as his when you have insurance papers to back it up as yours. If you get a fire from your machine and burn and entire building down, I very much doubt the sites insurance will bail you out, Im sure their lawyer would make sure of that. Always been something Ive had concerns with when siting any thing on some one else's premises shame that is how it is these days, and Im not sure how worth it is to run the gauntlet But in fairness if some ones machine burnt down My business, I would be going after them, well my insurance company would and not only that, if the establishment burnt down, or flooded and was destroyed and was not your machines fault, It would be hard to say if the business that is siting it would pay for your replacement, or what insurance if any they have A new machine is $12k these days business has a stupid amount of red tape, big and small So i'll give you a bit of run down on how all this works in VIC anyway when you site a machine in any venue on any % - in the eyes of PPSR you are technically leasing them the machine, no amount of ownership paperwork will convince PPSR you own it unless you register the machine with them as a interested party in the machine - for all intended purposes the venue own it and when a business goes bust and liquidators roll in unless it's on the register that you got a interest in it the liquidators considers it part of the business the business therefore has full control , when this happened to me i had to buy my machines back from the liquidator, these days when a place goes into liquidation the liquidator rolls up in a truck and removes anything of value (no more lets lock the door crap) his job is to get as much money for the creditors as he can and he's not about to let fred and his mates empty the place out when he's gone as for fires ? in my 20 odd years i have never seen a machine start a fire , in most places the wiring is so dodgy it's a wonder how the place ever opened up so i run surge protectors in all the machines regardless and on/off times depending on the venue so they don't stay on over night @balls . my 2c worth. some new start ups can do well at the start - i always look at how much money they put into getting it going that will give a indication if he's serious or not. i alway start of with a low value machine for 6 months 2-3k max (NO game of thrones) just to see how things run - general public will play any pinball if it's clean and looks nice good luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
balls Posted October 10, 2017 Author Share Posted October 10, 2017 Yeah, this bloke sounds far to obsessive about his own venture. Good tip ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemini2544 Posted October 10, 2017 Share Posted October 10, 2017 My advice is DON'T DO IT. I sited at two pubs. one had a big fire in the kitchen and my Indiana Jones was almost toast ( was smoke damaged ) and needed new decals. Second site went broke and the administrators tried to claim my machine as spoils of war. I took them back by force with two big blokes. Luckily no challenge from the admin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fridgejam Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 As others have said public liability insurance is a must. You should also have a written and signed agreement with the venue, that establishes you remain the owner of the games at all times. I believe that the National Australian Amusement Machine Association may have a draft contact you could base your agreement on, but you may need to join as a member to access it - http://namoa.com.au/ If you can try to have the venue cover the replacement value of your games under their insurance policy in the event of a fire / theft etc. Often they are already covered for millions anyway, and it does not cast them any extra to do this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason1 Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 So i'll give you a bit of run down on how all this works in VIC anyway when you site a machine in any venue on any % - in the eyes of PPSR you are technically leasing them the machine, no amount of ownership paperwork will convince PPSR you own it unless you register the machine with them as a interested party in the machine - for all intended purposes the venue own it and when a business goes bust and liquidators roll in unless it's on the register that you got a interest in it the liquidators considers it part of the business the business therefore has full control , when this happened to me i had to buy my machines back from the liquidator, these days when a place goes into liquidation the liquidator rolls up in a truck and removes anything of value (no more lets lock the door crap) his job is to get as much money for the creditors as he can and he's not about to let fred and his mates empty the place out when he's gone as for fires ? in my 20 odd years i have never seen a machine start a fire , in most places the wiring is so dodgy it's a wonder how the place ever opened up so i run surge protectors in all the machines regardless and on/off times depending on the venue so they don't stay on over night @balls . my 2c worth. some new start ups can do well at the start - i always look at how much money they put into getting it going that will give a indication if he's serious or not. i alway start of with a low value machine for 6 months 2-3k max (NO game of thrones) just to see how things run - general public will play any pinball if it's clean and looks nice good luck I get what you are saying I understand all that. But its like saying you have been driving for 20 years with out a crash and then deciding not to bother having even third party insurance to protect your self. You can do what you like, but I dont consider good advice to brush off insurance that financially protects you and your property. You lost machines up from that situation and Im sure up until that point you didnt have a problem with that situation either. Who knows what happens in the future, plus you dont know what could happen to the venue that could see your machines destroyed. Personally anything that relates to commercial property, and general public, people should be protecting them selves with insurance. you could be up shit creek for millions of dollars so you can make chump change from the machine. and you luck doesn't equal some one else's luck. one had a big fire in the kitchen and my Indiana Jones was almost toast ( was smoke damaged ) perfect example Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wiredoug Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 (edited) dont mix up product liability insurance (which you need) and public liability insurance ( which you arguably dont if its not your venue ). ...but you will probably get as part of the package anyway Edited October 11, 2017 by wiredoug added a bit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gemini2544 Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 I forgot to mention you can't get any commercial insurance without an ABN, You need to be a registered business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fridgejam Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 I wouldn't automatically assume you are covered under the venue's public liability. This is something you should confirm with the venue and their insurance company in writing if possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason1 Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 (edited) I forgot to mention you can't get any commercial insurance without an ABN, You need to be a registered business. correct, register for an ABN,you wouldn't need to register for GST as im sure you would fall below $75k a year and agree with @fridgejam, assumptions, are the mother of all screw ups, Insure up cover your ass. Its not that expensive really compared to potentially millions of dollars of problems that can easily come your way. I personally wouldn't have any one elses electrical commercial property in my business who didnt have public liability, or lack of any form of insurance. I actually cant understand why any business would, I had tobe insured to the hilt for them to agree for me to site in an IGA Edited October 11, 2017 by jason1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lou Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 insurance is not the problem - the below right up is , public liability is on a building and not a single item unless that single item is hired for out doors in public space - in that case you do need public liability hypothetical.. say you got pinball in a carpeted venue and there is a hole in the carpet 6 feet from the pinball - you trip and hit your head on the machine who is at fault ? the carpet or the machine being in it's way ? Q.Does a vending machine business have to register each machine ID, each location & each client name to protect ownership title to each vending machine? I assume that the vending machines are leased or hired for a term exceeding 1 year. The definition of a PPS lease relevantly provides: ‘13(1) A PPS lease means a lease or bailment of goods: (a) for a term of more than one year; or (b) for an indefinite term (even if the lease or bailment is determinable by any party within a year of entering into the lease or bailment); or © for a term of up to one year that is automatically renewable …; or (d) for a term of up to one year, in a case in which the lessee or bailee, with the consent of the lessor or bailor, retains uninterrupted possession of the leased or bailed property for a period of more than one year after the day the lessee or bailee first acquired possession of the property …’ If the vending machines are leased/hired to different grantors then a separate security interest will need to be registered on the PPSR in respect of each grantor. It would be registered under the collateral class of ‘tangible property – other goods’. It would be prudent to insert in the free text field particulars of the location of each vending machine. If multiple vending machines are leased/hired to one grantor, and there is insufficient space in the free text field (which takes up to 500 words), an attempt should be made to give the best description possible. It may be possible to attach a schedule to the registration even though it is not an intention of the PPSR to be a document lodgement system. Rent or hire? It’s PPSA or perish! The Personal Property Securities Act 2009 (PPSA) continues to bite sectors of the business community that have historically had little need for engagement in formal business arrangements. Recently, this firm has been involved in a number of matters relating to rental, hire or bailment of goods to companies that have become insolvent. The unfortunate outcome for the providers of the goods in each case was to quickly learn that it made no difference whether or not they ‘owned’ the goods – the PPSA may find that the goods are able to be legally sold by the liquidator without any recourse for the apparent‘owner’. You might ask “How is this possible?!” The simple explanation is as follows: • The PPSA provides that goods subject to hire, rental or bailment (where access is granted subject to a fee, or connected with some other commercial arrangement), create ‘security interests’ that must be documented (i.e. in writing); • Depending on the type of goods and the duration of the term of hire, rent or bailment, the security interests need to be ‘registered’ on the Personal Property Securities Register (PPSR) –http://www.ppsr.gov.au • Once correctly registered, the security interest is said to be ‘perfected’; and • Generally, only perfected security interests can be enforced against a liquidator or bankruptcy trustee. Our experience, where this has not happened, includes: • A hirer of arcade-style amusement machines did not have a written hire agreement in place and the arrangement was deemed to be a PPS Lease. The undocumented alleged security interest could not be enforced against the Liquidators, who took possession of the machines; • A hirer of vending machines was deemed to be exposed to a PPS Lease for the placement of his machines in the Company’s premises. The arrangement was not documented or registered on the PPSR. The Liquidator was able to successfully sell the machines at auction; • A soft drink supplier provided a branded refrigerator as part of a commercial arrangement under which a Company was obliged to buy drinks exclusively from that supplier. The supply of the fridge was deemed a bailment for value and therefore a PPS Lease. No registration on the PPSR was made for the fridge and the Liquidators took possession and sold the fridge at auction. This area of the law will continue to affect businesses who choose to ignore it. As always, early, trusted advice can help reduce risk and consequential loss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Autosteve Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 I'm not going to give any real details but a redemption machine at a venue I maintained had "allegedly" caused a customer to receive an electric shock. I looked around, multimeter in hand and found if I measured between a redemption machine and an Iceball, yes, 70volts potential between the redemption machine and the metal on the front of the Iceball. At court I heard the customer showed up wearing a leg brace, supposedly from the shock she received to the leg. That cost the company I worked for over $60000 in an out of court settlement. The problem was actually caused by the redemption machine's power plug half hanging out of a cheap power board and the earth pin was the pin that wasn't connecting therefore no ground so when she touched it and the Iceball metal that was earthed with her leg, 70 volts went though her and out her leg. I would call that a 1 in 1,000,000 chance of happening again but that redemption machine was pulled, a new plug was put on the lead and the company policy was to not allow the use of those cheap power boards for powering the arcades any longer. Bare in mind this machine like all the ones that were operated had been tested and tagged as in NSW, this test and tag procedure has to be done yearly and the tag "MUST" be attached to the lead of the machine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason1 Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 No one is denying the PPSA part @Lou and is good information to share, thank you But I Still dont get the point your trying to make with the insurance aspect of not needing to protect your self. I dont know who is at liable on your hypothetical. might be leaning towards the venue for the carpet causing the trip?. I could be wrong so id feel better about being insured. there are plenty of insurance policies offered by many insurers who offer cover for vending machines and operators, and in the grand scheme of things isnt that expensive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johns-Arcade Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 You'd do better selling the games to the venue, as a few machines will not offset the cost to operate them. You could then offer to maintain them for a fee. Regards, Johns-Arcade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lou Posted October 11, 2017 Share Posted October 11, 2017 No one is denying the PPSA part @Lou and is good information to share, thank you But I Still dont get the point your trying to make with the insurance aspect of not needing to protect your self. I dont know who is at liable on your hypothetical. might be leaning towards the venue for the carpet causing the trip?. I could be wrong so id feel better about being insured. there are plenty of insurance policies offered by many insurers who offer cover for vending machines and operators, and in the grand scheme of things isnt that expensive. @jason1 i do pay about 10k a year on insurance and yes i got public liability because i do hire arcade machines and for insurance purposes every machine has to be nominated like x amount of daytona , x amount pinball and so on arcade insurance is not common among insurance companies and you need to use a broker to broker a deal with them, my point is there is a thin line about public liability on one item in a place that already has public liability and according to PPSR you technically leasing the machine , you can ask 10 different people on this matter and get 10 different answers on the subject i don't know anyone that has tested this in court and opinions very a lot but the days of joe blog operating 3-4 arcade machines to make some extra cash are long gone because of all the costs involved Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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