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Free points when flipping problem


RaoulJuke

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Been working through some lil flipper related issues with my Grand Lizard and now at the final problem (hopefully).

 

This one relates to an issue where every time i press a button to flip, i am getting 3,000 points. It seems to be registering on both left and right flips and based on the points accrued and the sound it makes - its registering as hit of the slingshots. The slingshot does not fire off - just get the same points and sound effect. It is also doing this when a new ball is kicked out of the through. How does one go around problem solving this?

 

 

**reposted from SS restoration as wrong thread - sorry!**

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put it in switch test . thats what switch test is there for.

 

now thump playfield fonzie style and see what switch registers.

 

now realise the score switch isnt the same switch as the activation switch .. theres two sticking up the holes that activate it and one underneath that scores.. you're probably looking at the wrong one

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Not yet. But I'm working on it [emoji23]

 

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

 

Only thing I'm working on..... is work. :cry

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

put it in switch test . thats what switch test is there for.

 

now thump playfield fonzie style and see what switch registers.

 

now realise the score switch isnt the same switch as the activation switch .. theres two sticking up the holes that activate it and one underneath that scores.. you're probably looking at the wrong one

 

 

Awesome, will give this a crack soon. so is it basically a switch in the slingshot that is too close and the movement of the machine - more than the actual flipper mech - that is making it trigger?

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yep the switch underneathe the playfield on the arm .. not one of the ones that sits on the rubber.

 

 

 

I tried the switch test but got something odd there - its registering something but its showing the response so quickly i don't get a chance to see it. Even tried to film it and slow it down to the frame - but still too quick.

 

Pretty sure i see those switches under the slingshot arm you mean - right against the play field - I'm not sure if its them as when i trigger them the response sound effect is different. Will keep playing around though and see how i go -definitely around that area tho and it just being machine movement related seems right as well

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

That's what happens when you go to netherworld first [emoji16]

 

I obviously spent a productive afternoon back at work

 

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

 

Nah my biggest problem was i came home and instead of logging in and getting into it - i logged in, browsed through my emails and came back out and tried to get Grand Lizard working for an hour.

 

Now I'm still working, still trying to get Grand Lizard working, eating Chinese & drinking Gin. Who said men can't multi-task

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How many points is it scoring and then go around the playfield to see what else scores that same amount?.

 

To me it is sounding like a spike entering the switch matrix to tell you the truth though especially the switch registering so quick to read bit.

 

A spike can enter the matrix a couple of ways like an un-insulated lane change contact touching the flipper EOS switch, ( early Williams), or a faulty diode on a flipper coil or a bumper score contact touching an bumper mount that has it's coil touching the frame.

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How many points is it scoring and then go around the playfield to see what else scores that same amount?.

 

To me it is sounding like a spike entering the switch matrix to tell you the truth though especially the switch registering so quick to read bit.

 

A spike can enter the matrix a couple of ways like an un-insulated lane change contact touching the flipper EOS switch, ( early Williams), or a faulty diode on a flipper coil or a bumper score contact touching an bumper mount that has it's coil touching the frame.

 

�Im going to pull all the switches out associated with the slingshot and check those first - based on the sound & score - it is coming from the slingshots - 90% sure there.

 

will check around those flipper EOS's although gotta be honest -something like a "spike in the matrix" - i feel like I'm pissing in the dark there!

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45189622_2281710012115355_2899276166600851456_n.thumb.jpg.a90b5a0669814d0350227a086a545feb.jpg

 

45221890_1791034027690870_1554210714367819776_n.thumb.jpg.2010b8ad34b6390da74adb11ef8af962.jpg

 

Ok, pretty sure i can eliminate the switches on the slingshots - have pulled all 4 upright ones out and readjusted and the 2 tight to the play field seem well and truly ok in regards to not even being close to touching. Looks like i am looking for a spark in the matrix. Is this something that can be visually apparent to a relatively novice pin-repairer?

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Probably the easiest way would be to start the game and active each coil one at a time with your finger taking note what each should score and see if it actually does score the correct value.

 

If you are getting correct scores, do the same test but this time do each switch one at a time using the switch matrix map so you test every switch systematically and not miss any.

 

If you find one or some scoring incorrectly doing this switch test you would be looking for bad diode/ diodes in the matrix.

 

You find anything not scoring correctly, continue testing till you have them all because a full list will aid in finding the problem.

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Well, butter my backside and call me a biscuit - After (on/off) 4 hours looks around these bloody slingshot switches, EOS's etc etc etc etc - I have finally found the issue. Turns out - its actually the very very top switch that is hidden at the top-left of the mini playfield behind the 3 drop targets - switch leafs were stuck in the mech and those switches were all bent out like what, where who. Once i give them a little re-shaping she should be back on song in no time.

 

 

45226694_740022039682388_1248088363454431232_n.thumb.jpg.70c6933ace4d4e9f472637b2d7e5f370.jpg

 

 

Wiredoug & AutoSteve - can't thank you both enough for throwing some advice my way. If you hadn't i would have cracked the shits and had myself one hell of a duck fit. Thanks fella's - your always the first and last to be helping shmucks like me out - you guys ever head up north for a pinball event, let me know & I will sort you fella's out some refreshments :cheers:

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So somehow between my victory speech and going to bed ( 4hours later) - this entire situation went from being solved to being totally ****ed.

 

Took the switch off and tried to adjust them to suit. Couldn't quite get it. Either would still trigger from movement - or couldnt get it to trigger at all. While trying to adjust it i made slight contact to a lamp socket with my mini pliers which let to a very small spark and the game resetting. Upon resetting as soon as a game would be started, it would instantly go into a sequence which led to points & lights going off -and the back drop target bank (4 target) constantly triggering up (targets did not go down, just constantly up. When i would hit the problem switch - the game would reset.

 

I removed the problem switch completely - but this made matters worse as now it was not reading balls in the trough and it would not start a game at all. Assume i had broken the daisy chain.

 

Pulled out an old spare switch which had previously been for my slingshots on Funhouse and reconnected that - not quite the right one to be useful longterm, but ok to test it further.Went to start a game and went back to doing the same cycle as before - points and lights flashing -drop targets shooting up - if i hit the problematic switch, game would reset.

 

Took the balls out and put it into switch test mode. as soon as i dropped a ball into the trough - the following switches would trigger in this order

 

-Lizard Head

-Lockup 1 Ball

-Three Bank 2

-Drain lane

-Outhole

-Roll Tilt

 

 

Having a look at these switches, there does seem to be wires connecting them which go back to this problematic switch (White/Violet - Violet/Green - Gold(?)//Red ). So guess omething is making these charge upon activation - is this what a matrix spark is? Or has a component on the CPU possibly shorted when i made the accidental contact. Really really lost how to head forward now - really wish i had just gone to bed, I should know by now that only bad news happens after 1am

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Though it's probably a bit late for this advice, I wouldn't ever adjust switches with the machine on.

 

Which switch were you adjusting on the slingshot? The upright ones that sit against the rubber or the low voltage one that sits against the crank arm under the playfield?

 

Assuming the latter, the following from Clay's system 11 guide is likely relevant:

 

Shorting the Switch Matrix to +50 volts

When in a hurry, many make an under playfield adjustment with the game turned on. Doing a switch adjustment with the power on could easily short a coil lead (+25/50 volts) to a switch lead. This will immediately blow the switch matrix, and fry the most anything to and including the 6821 PIA at U38. You can bet the switch row 4011 chips at U30 and U39 will have failed. Also it could take out the switch column 2N3904 transistor(s) and the 74LS244 chip at U40.

 

If after replacing the suspect components, disconnect the switch input plugs from 1J8 and 1J10 at the bottom of the CPU board. Put the game into switch test mode, and none of the switches should be activated! If a whole row of switches is activated, that would mean that something in the row chain is still bad.

I don't have a grand lizard manual on hand. Are all the switches that now trigger on the same row or the same column?

 

If you Trigger other switches what is the result?

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Though it's probably a bit late for this advice, I wouldn't ever adjust switches with the machine on.

 

Which switch were you adjusting on the slingshot? The upright ones that sit against the rubber or the low voltage one that sits against the crank arm under the playfield?

 

Assuming the latter, the following from Clay's system 11 guide is likely relevant:

 

 

I don't have a grand lizard manual on hand. Are all the switches that now trigger on the same row or the same column?

 

If you Trigger other switches what is the result?

 

 

Hey mate - i had been turning it off to adjust that switch everytime, but could never quite get it right. Thought i was very close & the 1 time i decided to go in just pull it back a lil......... another lesson learned, i guess.

 

When i tested other switches they all seemed to trigger ok. If i trigger the Lizard Head for example - just the Lizard head reacts.

 

To confirm, the test mode has 2 switch test - "Levels" & Edges" - I actually don't know the difference between them, but when i drop the ball in the trough on Levels i get

 

-Lizard Head

-Lockup 1 Ball

-Three Bank 2

-Drain lane

-Outhole

-Roll Tilt

 

If i just do the Edges, i get "Lizard Head" .

 

Ive got a pdf version of the manual here, i am REALLY vague with this switch matrix/column stuff - in what section can i check that for you to confirm?

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

Update here

 

When i push the troublesome switch in test mode - it says invalid.

 

When i have a ball in the trough and try to trigger Lizard Head - it won't. No ball in the trough - test fine

 

when i do a lamp test - none of the flasher bulbs work, but when i play a game - the activate fine when they are meant to - so pretty sure no issue there.

 

Game actually plays fine except for the start up and then constant drop targets triggering up.

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Hey mate - i had been turning it off to adjust that switch everytime, but could never quite get it right. Thought i was very close & the 1 time i decided to go in just pull it back a lil......... another lesson learned, i guess.

 

When i tested other switches they all seemed to trigger ok. If i trigger the Lizard Head for example - just the Lizard head reacts.

 

To confirm, the test mode has 2 switch test - "Levels" & Edges" - I actually don't know the difference between them, but when i drop the ball in the trough on Levels i get

 

-Lizard Head

-Lockup 1 Ball

-Three Bank 2

-Drain lane

-Outhole

-Roll Tilt

 

If i just do the Edges, i get "Lizard Head" .

 

Ive got a pdf version of the manual here, i am REALLY vague with this switch matrix/column stuff - in what section can i check that for you to confirm?

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

Update here

 

When i push the troublesome switch in test mode - it says invalid.

 

When i have a ball in the trough and try to trigger Lizard Head - it won't. No ball in the trough - test fine

 

when i do a lamp test - none of the flasher bulbs work, not sure if they are meant to

 

In the manual check the index to find details of the "Switch Matrix". It is like a table or chart, listing all assignments for up to 64 possible switches for your game. Shown as a Grid of 8x8. These are "columns" running vertical, and "Rows" running horizontal. Check against the matrix what your faulty switches have in common... that should shed a little more light.

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Page 5 of Grand Lizard (preliminary) manual:

 

Switch Matrix chart suggests you may have an issue with "Row 2"?

 

Sw#2 - Ball Roll Tilt

Sw#10 - Outhole

Sw#18 - Left Outlane

Sw#26 - 3-Bank

Sw#34 - Multiball 3

Sw#42 - Ramp Tongue

Sw#50 - Not used

Sw#58 - Not used

 

Sound right?

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Though it's probably a bit late for this advice, I wouldn't ever adjust switches with the machine on.

 

Which switch were you adjusting on the slingshot? The upright ones that sit against the rubber or the low voltage one that sits against the crank arm under the playfield?

 

 

The issue was not around the slingshots it was right at the back in the upper play field- the switch for the what i think they call the "Turnaround" bend - all the issues seem to be in that area or the trough[ATTACH=CONFIG]138081[/ATTACH]

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

Page 5 of Grand Lizard (preliminary) manual:

 

Switch Matrix chart suggests you may have an issue with "Row 2"?

 

Sw#2 - Ball Roll Tilt

Sw#10 - Outhole

Sw#18 - Left Outlane

Sw#26 - 3-Bank

Sw#34 - Multiball 3

Sw#42 - Ramp Tongue

Sw#50 - Not used

Sw#58 - Not used

 

Sound right?

 

 

yes that looks about right - thanks for the walkthrough with the SM in the manual as well - can now understand that and what you mean by Column/Rows. So basically i have a Switch Matrix problem which means some board repairs are required. Once they are repaired and i install a new switch for the stuffed one - am i safe to assume it should be much, more than likely, OK again?

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

So, ironically - after 4 hours looking for an issue that i thought was a Switch Matrix issue - but was in-fact just a minor switch issue - i've managed to actually make my problem.... a switch Matrix issue.

 

 

So I guess you could say my small mishandling with the pliers, was a freudian slip

45226694_740022039682388_1248088363454431232_n.thumb.jpg.01709f9fc9ff2461b35966fed56151bc.jpg

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Yes.

 

Always good to have a thorough check over for anything loose or out of place re. switches. Use the matrix as a guide and visually check/inspect all of your switches (all 47 lol) ... to be sure to be sure ;)

 

Shorting the GI power to the Switch Matrix has likeley cooked something, from the description that something will be components in the circuitry for "Row 2" of the switch matrix.

 

Power off is the best policy...

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Yes.

 

Always good to have a thorough check over for anything loose or out of place re. switches. Use the matrix as a guide and visually check/inspect all of your switches (all 47 lol) ... to be sure to be sure ;)

 

Shorting the GI power to the Switch Matrix has likeley cooked something, from the description that something will be components in the circuitry for "Row 2" of the switch matrix.

 

Power off is the best policy...

 

Thanks everyone, looks like this one is solved for now - another lesson to bank away

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