Wotto Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 What's the warranty these days. New Sterns. Answer will lead to another question about general customer protection these days in relation to buyers "expectations" when making a purchase Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koops Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 Warranty. New games Amd warranty info here (basically 6 months) : https://docs.wixstatic.com/ugd/d84c35_87e729d2b4e54f5d8cc44a2805334044.pdf Pretty insane when you consider the price! The problem would be home vs site usage. My guess is that the terms are really expecting operator level usage. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason1 Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 (edited) Amd warranty info here (basically 6 months) : https://docs.wixstatic.com/ugd/d84c35_87e729d2b4e54f5d8cc44a2805334044.pdf Pretty insane when you consider the price! Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk There are a few major things in that warranty scan you posted that are actually against the law and dont meet the minimum ACL regulations for a warranty. Almost everything on page 2 of that scan is a complete breech of ACL with the Exception of number 5, that would likely be legal.. below ACCC link. https://www.accc.gov.au/consumers/consumer-rights-guarantees/repair-replace-refund Edited January 21, 2019 by jason1 Shortened the post down, instead provided external Link to original source. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wotto Posted January 21, 2019 Author Share Posted January 21, 2019 So - what are peoples 'expectations' when they buy a new game, how long do you expect it to 'last' ? ( before major breakdowns ). Statutory Consumer Guarantee covers ALL goods and came into effect in 2011. That is, if you buy ( say ) a fridge in this example with a ONE year warranty, ( but can be ANY product ) ..... and you expect to get a good 5+ years out of it and it breaks down after 3 years, you can push for and obtain a replacement fridge even though the fridge is 2 years past warranty. This happens - a LOT these days. We are forced to do it in our workplace once a consumer has gone through the right channels to make it happen. There is a process, but it is in place. Be interesting to see what would happen with a claim in this industry - as it is not exempt from this consumer protection. Noting also that under general ACL " When a product is too large, too heavy or too difficult to remove, the business is responsible for paying the shipping costs " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audioenslaved Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 I’m getting my money back on my $1500 Samsung tv from 5 years ago only because I pushed. Probably a little bit too hard but I still got my way in the end. And I only asked for my money back because from the initial request it too 3 weeks for them to get in contact with me! AMD are pretty good with repairs I had a board problem with my xmen that was 3 years old at the time Rod came out and took it back to AMD where they changed the board and I’m not sure what else they did. Cost me $100 for Rod to take it there but it’s been fine ever since. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wotto Posted January 21, 2019 Author Share Posted January 21, 2019 AMD are pretty good with repairs I had a board problem with my xmen that was 3 years old at the time Rod came out and took it back to AMD where they changed the board and I’m not sure what else they did. Cost me $100 for Rod to take it there but it’s been fine ever since. Yep - hear that :D:D:D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Koops Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 Be interesting to see what would happen with a claim in this industry - as it is not exempt from this consumer protection. Noting also that under general ACL " When a product is too large, too heavy or too difficult to remove, the business is responsible for paying the shipping costs " Very interesting on what parts of that written warranty are actually legal/enforceable. Are there any other products similar to pins that have similar potential issues (ie difficult to move etc) and small written warranties? So does a written warranty limitation actually mean anything? Ie using a Bunnings “home use only” ozito hammer drill on a construction work site and it dying within a couple of hours wouldn’t be replaced? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wotto Posted January 22, 2019 Author Share Posted January 22, 2019 So does a written warranty limitation actually mean anything? Ie using a Bunnings “home use only” ozito hammer drill on a construction work site and it dying within a couple of hours wouldn’t be replaced? Yes - an interesting discussion. We sell screens and if they have ( say ) a 12 month warranty and are meant for home use BUT the client buys from us it and installs in a pub for example ( Commercial premises ) - then the warranty is 3 months - and we advise them that. We are fortunate enough to know up front where our customers are likely to use the screens they buy from us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FLEX Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 Far out, I was only thinking about this the other day! I am in a remote area of the country (at least when your talking pinball anyway..) and have purchased two NIB machines so far so it is a concern if there was a major issue. Drawing a comparison with white goods is probably along the same lines, with the warranty periods on those generally at a 2 year minimum. Take into account a washing machine or fridge costing 1/10 that of a pinball.. So I would think 12 month warranty on an $8-10K item, no matter what that item may be, would be more then fair and reasonable to expect. Bare in mind that it is the responsibility of the customer to get an item back to the retailer for warranty repairs though, which could be a rather costly and painful thing for some (I believe the retailer can demand this if they wanted to, no matter how good you are at repairs). Fingers crossed for my node boards.. :blink: - - - Updated - - - So does a written warranty limitation actually mean anything? Ie using a Bunnings “home use only” ozito hammer drill on a construction work site and it dying within a couple of hours wouldn’t be replaced? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk I think miss-use of a hammer drill would fall into the following 'Exception to Consumer guarantee's' from the ACL; has damaged the goods by using them in a way that was unreasonable. If the product was used against the products terms of use then the manufacture can bring this point up in its defence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason1 Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 (edited) So - what are peoples 'expectations' when they buy a new game, how long do you expect it to 'last' ? ( before major breakdowns ). Statutory Consumer Guarantee covers ALL goods and came into effect in 2011. That is, if you buy ( say ) a fridge in this example with a ONE year warranty, ( but can be ANY product ) ..... and you expect to get a good 5+ years out of it and it breaks down after 3 years, you can push for and obtain a replacement fridge even though the fridge is 2 years past warranty. This happens - a LOT these days. We are forced to do it in our workplace once a consumer has gone through the right channels to make it happen. There is a process, but it is in place. Be interesting to see what would happen with a claim in this industry - as it is not exempt from this consumer protection. Noting also that under general ACL " When a product is too large, too heavy or too difficult to remove, the business is responsible for paying the shipping costs " You would certainly imagine the expectation for a NIB worth $10k tobe more than 6months before a break down. wouldnt you? That part about them not covering Labour costs, well that is against the law. Repairs If the problem with a product or service is minor, you must accept a free repair if the business offers you one. If the business fails to give you a free repair within a reasonable time or cannot fix your problem, you can: get it done elsewhere and pass on the costs to the business ask for a replacement ask for a refund recover compensation for the drop in value below the price paid. As you have already pointed out, they would also have to pay return costs so that part of their warranty Is against the law. Bare in mind that it is the responsibility of the customer to get an item back to the retailer for warranty repairs though, which could be a rather costly and painful thing for some (I believe the retailer can demand this if they wanted to, no matter how good you are at repairs). on something the size of a pinball, so you could fairly make the point they need to cover shipping. as the law is as Koops posted above. When a product is too large, too heavy or too difficult to remove, the business is responsible for paying the shipping costs or collecting the product within a reasonable time of being notified of the problem. Examples include: The part about them not covering plastics,ramps, moldings, Switches and some mechanical parts is also against the law. The part about Warranty claims that are made before the Expiry of warranty But they didnt receive the item back before the expiry, that is also Against the law. If your Paying $10k for a pinball People should exercise their rights, the rest of country has to abide by, there isnt a consumer law that excludes new Pinballs anyway good thread mate, it should come in helpful for people. Edited January 22, 2019 by jason1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boots Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 Would they have any of those exemptions if the machine was being used commercially? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wiredoug Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 for the ACL to apply ... "the goods or services are of a kind ordinarily acquired for personal, domestic or household use or consumption." manufacturers will simply claim pinball machines are commercial goods that you have chosen to collect as a hobby and the party is over. ... or is it.? hhmm . but be careful what you wish for. if someone succeeds it making it apply it will push the price of new games up even more here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajfclark Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 Would they have any of those exemptions if the machine was being used commercially? I'd expect a pinball to hold up under commercial use as they are designed for that, but I don't know if consumer Law protects businesses as well as it does the little people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dzhay1981 Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 for the ACL to apply ... "the goods or services are of a kind ordinarily acquired for personal, domestic or household use or consumption." That's not right or at least only partly right. Section 3(1) of the ACL is as follows (my emphasis): Acquiring goods as a consumer (1) A person is taken to have acquired particular goods as a consumer if, and only if: (a) the amount paid or payable for the goods, as worked out under subsections (4) to (9), did not exceed: (i) $40,000; or (ii) if a greater amount is prescribed for the purposes of this paragraph--that greater amount; or (b) the goods were of a kind ordinarily acquired for personal, domestic or household use or consumption; or © the goods consisted of a vehicle or trailer acquired for use principally in the transport of goods on public roads. If we're talking pinball machines, and based upon no first hand experience and just seeing all the posts on here, I would say that a consumer's reasonable expectations (and hence any statutory warranty as to acceptable quality) would have to account for the amount the things seem to break down. The comparison with white goods is probably not a good one for that reason (unless it's an LG washing machine), because no one is selling white goods to clothes washing enthusiasts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ajfclark Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 (unless it's an LG washing machine) Or a Samsung. http://i.imgur.com/jPisLeA.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lambodad Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 ACL beats any manufacturers warranty . If you report an issue and they don’t meet acl then it’s an easy win for you . Wouldn’t even care what’s on the clients warranty card it’s irrelevant . So if your unsure just call and report it and see what they tell you. It’s simple as that . Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jason1 Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 (edited) for the ACL to apply ... "the goods or services are of a kind ordinarily acquired for personal, domestic or household use or consumption." manufacturers will simply claim pinball machines are commercial goods that you have chosen to collect as a hobby and the party is over. ... or is it.? hhmm . but be careful what you wish for. if someone succeeds it making it apply it will push the price of new games up even more here. Sort of but not really, They can limit the sale to commercial Only client. If you are commercial Supplier and you sell to a Consumer thats fine, But the consumer is still protected By ACL In this case it is marketed at both the home and Commercial environment. they can have two different Warranty systems for both Commercial and Consumer if the product is commercial but is available to both consumers and Commercial environments. But they cant Use the fact it is a commercial Product to limit warranty to consumers unless it was sold to a business and was then used only at home. As long as the purchaser fits the description of a Consumer, then the company must still offer the Legal requirements on warranty and so on. In this case though you would be right it would likely increase prices, mainly due to lack of competition, in a competitive market Warranty is typically used as a Selling point so are often more generous with their warranties than they need tobe I'd expect a pinball to hold up under commercial use as they are designed for that, but I don't know if consumer Law protects businesses as well as it does the little people. typically the laws are stronger towards Consumer protections than it is for items being used Commercial situations, for obvious reasons, But My experience with Buying commercial Products especially High end Commercial Suppliers, is most companies often Offer very good Warranties on their own, some times better than What a consumer is offered, not because they are forced to by law but typically because of Competition, so if they want to sell you an expensive item, they know Business owners do take into account on purchases what quality of warranty the company is offering, if their competitor offers better warranty and the product at the same price, likely they buy from them. In business if your going to spend good money on something you want to have the ease of mind that you have some support in case of defects and so on, just the same as you do if buying expensive items for home. So market often dictates that a bit for us business owners, not always but often. Edited January 22, 2019 by jason1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn70 Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 ACL beats any manufacturers warranty . If you report an issue and they don’t meet acl then it’s an easy win for you . Wouldn’t even care what’s on the clients warranty card it’s irrelevant . So if your unsure just call and report it and see what they tell you. It’s simple as that . Yep, that's what I have been informed of also. My car came with a 3yr warranty. A minor issue came up last month when it was 2 months out of it's stated and advertised 3yr warranty. I pushed (pretty softly) and they put it through as 'good will' stating the condition of the vehicle was excellent and the fact that it's been serviced at the dealer for 3yrs (came with 5yr free servicing anyway). So bottom line is it depends on what the item is, what the item cost, the condition of the item when a claim/problem/fault arises, where and how the item has been used and what the exact problem is. Manufacturers Warranty means nothing. This is what I am told by someone who works in this field. So a new $12k pinball machine used at home - make your own mind up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boots Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 It sounds like Stern cover very little of the warranty costs and the Aussie dealer is liable for that. It would all have to be factored into the sale price of the machine, I imagine Stern sells them to their distributors at a certain price and anything above that is profit, effectively Stern wiping their hands of any warranty costs other that major design flaws. So naturally the distributor is going to resist any warranty costs so they can increase their profit margin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lambodad Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 Nope it’s sterns problem at end of day if they want to sell in Australia they have to follow our guidelines even with warranty issues so the distributed will bat for them but at the end of the day the cost is sterns . But that’s not our issue we deal with the person that sold it to us not the manufacturer and that’s stated by law . Same as when u buy Nike shoes you don’t call Nike when they are faulty you advise the store you got it from . Hope this helps everyone Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ballypinball Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 No consumer law on pinballs with a coin door, commercial coin op product, you can offer an extended warranty at a cost for consumer customers for in home repairs Take the coin door off a different story, it has been tested many times, parts only replacement does not include labour. We include labour if bought into our workshop but not onsite. We resellers have bent those rules a bit, but there would be no pinball dealers in Australia if the warranty for parts and labour was 12 months when you make $500-$1000 a game margin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lambodad Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 No consumer law on pinballs with a coin door, commercial coin op product, you can offer an extended warranty at a cost for consumer customers for in home repairs Take the coin door off a different story, it has been tested many times, parts only replacement does not include labour. We include labour if bought into our workshop but not onsite. We resellers have bent those rules a bit, but there would be no pinball dealers in Australia if the warranty for parts and labour was 12 months when you make $500-$1000 a game margin. Your back bro good to see . That’s why anyone who has no idea about pinball machines should take extended warranty like the one you offer ( if anyone else offers it ) so it’s no issue then . I remember when my woz kept breaking down you came round every time and fixed it. I must admit if I didn’t have that service I would never of kept buying machines as that was my first one Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dzhay1981 Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 Suggest you read the Australian Consumer Law there mate because you're wrong unless your machines sell for over $40,000. The ACL does apply and so do the consumer guarantees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ballypinball Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 Suggest you read the Australian Consumer Law there mate because you're wrong unless your machines sell for over $40,000. The ACL does apply and so do the consumer guarantees. You are all sprinkled with fairy dust, you can choose not to buy the product and that is your choice, you can't make the retailer offer an all inclusive 12 month on site warranty regardless of what you think. If or when that happens machines will increase $1,000 overnight - - - Updated - - - Your back bro good to see . That’s why anyone who has no idea about pinball machines should take extended warranty like the one you offer ( if anyone else offers it ) so it’s no issue then . I remember when my woz kept breaking down you came round every time and fixed it. I must admit if I didn’t have that service I would never of kept buying machines as that was my first one Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro Wish my Corvette had an ACL Warranty towed back from Colac on the weekend, stuck Clutch $1,100 tow bill later Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lambodad Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 Racv man I think it’s called extra care around 200 a year and any car u drive if it breaks down they tow it for free for you . Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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