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System 11b Reset Issue - Swords of Fury


razorsedge

Question

This is an issue with the game since I have had it, and is intermittent, I'm having some trouble identifying the precise cause.

 

The game plays "fine" for extended periods, then eventually presents with resetting issues that seem to be linked to the sound system somehow (for extended periods).

 

I have not as yet been able to definitively pinpoint the cause of it, it always seems to "come good" without any known specific intervention. I have carried out many checks and done quite a bit of testing of various kinds across several of the boards, including checking connectors and reflowing suspect looking joints. My trouble is I have limited specific experience with troubleshooting of the system11 boardset, I have however been looking through all the reference material I can find both online and in manuals/guides. I found no logs that quite match this issue. I have found info on a variety of components to try replacing, on the sound board, PSB, and the MPU board, but rather than shotgunning I thought I would put this out there.

 

 

Here is what I know of so far, roughly in the order of discovery:

 

-When I got the game the speaker panel speakers were disconnected (only cabinet speaker connected), it seems as though someone previous could not find a proper solution to this issue either. The game played fine, but would reset if the volume was turned up. I reconnected the backbox speakers to see what difference this made, it made little difference. Work fine with volume at minimum (which incidentally is still fairly loudish?), reset when loud sound effects come up with volume elevated (instant reset where credits are displayed within a second of the cutout, then GI relay flashes). Disconnect Power to J3 on sound board and play all week without sound, reconnect and resets consistently. Exactly the same results by disconnecting the speakers out connector on the sound board.

 

<proceeded to repair a multitude of (possibly) unrelated issues including lamp matrix and repin many connectors on interconnect board and Aux driver board>

 

-Investigate Power reset circuits on MPU board. Everything appeared in good visual condition including all pads, and with no alkaline battery damage to the board or components. Doing the ground pin 40 reset overide test prevented all resetting, but also eliminated ALL audio output from the machine.

 

-Checked power supply voltages with game in attract mode and found solid 5.00v, -14v , but where there should be +12v I was reading +9v or just below. Checked 18 millifarad smoothing cap (on PSB) by desoldering one lead and checking with meter it reads 17millifarad and visually in good shape, so I figured sufficient. When running the AC ripple was 0.59vAC across the cap which I figured is acceptable as well. Also disconnected and checked the two 100microfarad caps above it while I was there, good. Found a connection that looked suspect where a lead is (barely) soldered to the board from the 2N6057 on the heatsink and resoldered that. Reassembled but still reading 9v on the 12v pins.

 

-Disconnected output connectors at top of board and powered game on, find the +12 pins now all read +12.7vDC unloaded.

 

-Reconnect to the MPU only (with sound J3 disconnected) and power up to read 10.1v on the J17 connector. Play games all week. Reconnect sound J3 then power up and read 9v or just under on the 12v line at all three boards and the test points. I figured the test points being the same as the line rules out header pads and connector pins, and the pads visually look fine also. With the speakers connector removed, the voltage is still 9v but game does not reset.

 

-Attempting to play game with meter clipped to 5v reads solid 4.97v and doesn't fluctuate. The same but with meter on 12v point reads 8.9 volts and doesn't fluctuate more than 0.1v as resets occur (to 8.8v at worst).

 

-Waving the Thermal camera around (in attract mode) reveals no connectors that are even warm. The chip at U3 on sound board is running at around 50-55 degrees. The TDA2002's on the sound board U23 is running slightly warmer than U22 (27 and 22 deg respectively, ambient inside shed is around 19). Nothing else noteworthy to me. Seems normal except <maybe> the U3. Removed and refitted all socketed chips on the sound board, no change.

 

 

 

Right now the game is unplayable even at minimum volume, but if history is anything to go by the game will again become playable at some point. This may be due to temperature or atmospheric conditions? ... it is bloody cold out just now (2deg outside Lol), and some dampness in the air. But anyway, the time is here to get to the bottom of it once and for all.

 

I am to the point of replacing some components and have a hit list, but no clear or obvious priorities so in no particular order. Some of these components I do have on hand.

 

 

-1458 chips on MPU and/or Sound

-YM2151 OPM Sound chip U3 (sound board)

-YM3012 small socketed chip U1 (sound board)

-TDA2002 audio amps U22-U23 (sound board)

-Electrolytic caps on sound board (all/any)

-Electrolytic caps on PSB (other than tested)

-2N6057 on PSB

 

 

Is the 2v drop on connecting MPU in any way "normal"? , is there anything obvious on the MPU that would cause such a voltage drain?

 

Is this all possibly just "weakness" on part of the PSB?

 

My PSB has no markings on it to describe which fuse holders are which (and have had no success in finding a layout diagram), but it only has the two 7A fuses installed below the heatsink (one of which has Always been blown and I have never replaced it, since the game is fully working (kind of, but no game aspect is inactive). It appears this PSB is from a Different Game (it is a D-8345 though) and some connectors don't even seem to be present in the game anymore. It has an aftermarket LED display and the entire HV section is inactive with No fuses installed.

 

I also wonder if "minimum volume" setting normally leaves a system 11 with a subdued but still moderate output level? ... is this an issue, or normal?

 

 

Anyway, just wondering if anything stands out to anyone before I start getting serious with changing components out, maybe someone can help me with prioritising this list, or has any other thoughts or suggestions. I considered just ordering an aftermarket PSB, but that would be pointless if the issue lies on the MPU or Sound boards...

 

Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.

 

Cheers! :)

Edited by razorsedge
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This definitely sounds like a power supply problem from your description. Getting 9 V where should be getting 12 V is what causes your resets, I'd say.

 

Either your power supply has a fault that stops it from keeping the voltage where it should be or, alternatively, the sound board has a fault that causes it to draw too much current. If you see 9V on the supply rail with the sound board connected but no sound playing, I'd look at the sound board first. It really shouldn't be drawing much current at all while it doesn't produce output. I'd measure how much current is actually drawn by the sound board and then take it from there.

 

Michi.

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@razorsedge For the sound volume on minimum, is there a resistor between the ground shield and the volume pot? The value of that resistor sets the minimum you can turn the volume down to. Jumper it and you'll be able to turn the volume down more.

 

The PSU schematic for Space Station (also system 11b) says that you'll get resets when the voltage at TP3 drops below 10.5v:

psu-schematic.thumb.jpg.6771f49a57007e4ca4be95780a807a35.jpg

 

If you give me a few minutes I'll tell you what I'm getting at TP3.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

My PSB has no markings on it to describe which fuse holders are which (and have had no success in finding a layout diagram), but it only has the two 7A fuses installed below the heatsink (one of which has Always been blown and I have never replaced it, since the game is fully working (kind of, but no game aspect is inactive). It appears this PSB is from a Different Game (it may not be a D-11581 but has the same layout from the rough unlabelled diagrams I have found) and some connectors don't even seem to be present in the game anymore. It has an aftermarket LED display and the entire HV section is inactive with No fuses installed.

I'm in the same boat, my PSU is from a different machine (High Speed in my case). Looking at the schematic in the Swords of Fury manual, there's a few sections of the old PSU that won't be used.

 

Can you post a picture of the PSU? Is there a serial number sticker on it? The first 3 digits will be the game model it came from.

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Or I'll get completely sidetracked and not... I'll have a look this evening.

 

That's cool, I'm the same at times :lol

 

There have been some rather interesting observations and developments since yesterday evening... I rekon @Michi 's post is right on the ball, it may still be sound board, even though new PSB would likely solve the resetting (for a while at least).

 

So anyway, I decided to do a little experiment overnight:

 

When I began yesterday evening the game was quite cold, it was probably only about 12-15 degrees in the shed through the day and the game had not been on since the previous day. That is what led to me finally having had enough of the issue, turned it on and couldn't even Start a game it was that bad. It would consistently reset as the top diverter activated and it tried to play the sound effect. I blame the sound effect since it would still reset occasionally just by pressing the Start button (prior to it even trying to kick a ball into shooter lane, when it says "Challenge Me!" :) ). Yet the music seems to play without causing issues.

 

I decided to leave the game powered on overnight when I retired, and with a blow heater (on low setting) directing warm air into the open coin door. With the glass on this warmth finds its way up through the backbox. I had noticed that TP3 was gradually increasing slightly throughout the evening as the game spent more time powered up, so figured it would be interesting to see what happens.

 

It was!. With the meter still connected to TP3 and game in attract I flicked the meter on this morning and it reads +10.6v. I have not yet retested at all points or in the various conditions re sound disconnected etc (rather, I began playing games! :D).

 

Playing games the voltage now remains between 10.0v and 10.7v. So after a half dozen or so uninterrupted games, I began to gradually increase the volume (from minimum, lowish level of audio output) to observe what would happen. The volume got to be quite loud game by game and still no resets. The observed voltages remained basically the same regardless of volume. In attract mode I spontaneously decided to try turning the volume Way Up!. This resulted in an instant reset (only after reaching Full Pot sweep with attract sounds running) in attract mode with the voltage still reading 10.6v.

 

Eventually the output got to borderline deafening during a game I was playing (with pot about 3/4 setting) and beginning to distort but still playing without reset (and monitoring TP3 which remained between 9.9v and 10.7v during play), when a first time ever event (since I owned it) occurred... a game "lockup" (game Halted, display goes blank, flippers unresponsive and no audio output). :blink:

 

Flicked the game off and on, restarted no problem. Turned volume down slightly (very loud but still comfortable and not distorting) and proceeded to play and complete several more games without any interruption. Voltage noted at this point as between 10.1v and 10.7v.

 

This game has had a fair bit of wiring work done by someone prior to my ownership. It has had sections of loom replaced and spliced in, albeit in a seemingly professional manner (although I replaced all of the previous connector work due to them not using trifurcon pins, and crimping without any soldering, wires were just pulling out of the back of connectors :021: ). I have not changed anything at all with respect to wiring arrangement (after the previous owners work some colour codes do not match on the PSB power input connector, but all seems to be functional).

 

The volume pot has a 47ohm resistor in line with the ground shield:

20180715_124042.thumb.jpg.6e40b4a3aa4aedef54573369f6941dc1.jpg

 

The PSB connector (or perhaps the wiring) has been replaced by splicing looms (and some wires are cut flush at the connector):

20180715_123542.thumb.jpg.4a72ca437446fa4481c88dfdbd49c9ae.jpg

 

Down lower some of these wires are spliced again. After looking at this picture I wondered if there could be a ground plane issue too, where the stilts clip into the backplate:

20180715_123557.thumb.jpg.ede24019b24175e2c4f23775c7176ce1.jpg

 

Also spliced again down in the cabinet:

20180715_124020.thumb.jpg.429cbcfd5fdb15f97d0bd3f159f99a48.jpg

 

*If I use shrinkwrap the wires are always soldered underneath. Blind faith lets me assume this is the case here.... but what if they're just twitched? like how they only bothered to crimp the new budget connector pins? ... might have to try tugging at them just in case.

 

Number on PSB, and whole PSB:

20180715_123300.thumb.jpg.0b6034249c86ebda322fe7af3ff0ac2d.jpg

 

20180715_133612.thumb.jpg.a35430ae1cc63a2c4e708003d5a35e66.jpg

 

Sound board:

20180715_123425.thumb.jpg.3ef57ed8027de2e977fe20b89771ad56.jpg

 

 

There has now been some progress since yesterday anyway... more test results to mull over.

 

Cheers all!

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That heat sensor is cool as hell.

 

A cool thing that can show a hellish hot mess! :lol

 

One of the best investments I ever made in terms of tools, but it saves alot of effort for some stuff... especially spotting connectors under stress that have not burned yet. Shorted IC's also stand out like a sore thumb!. This U3 doesn't seem hot enough to be shorted (it is also still working of course), but it is certainly using up some power.

 

It may however be causing my overall elevated audio output level?, I don't know enough about the thing to know though... It is a Yamaha sound chip. ** the top 1/3 of the pot is pretty much pointless as is, so loud it hurts the speakers and my ears, and distortion city.

Edited by razorsedge
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Your PSU comes from a model 555 - Millionaire.

 

The lack of 1/10 amp fuses tells me you have an led board, hence no fuse in the top position of the left fuse column of the PSU.

 

Millionaire... well that explains it being used for something else then :lol

 

Yeah I listed that near the end of the OP... I think it's an X-pin. Was in it when I got the game.

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I'm sure I've seen someone with a volume linked reset before. I'm just trying to remember where, when, what game or some other useful search term.

 

My first thought is that the PSU is aging and driving the amp circuit harder just puts out over the edge.

 

The second thought is that it could be components on the sound board are the problem.

 

I'm just trying to think how to distinguish between the two.

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I think the excessive power output going to speakers is a contributor somehow, but it still was resetting (only really when rather cold) with the pot at minimum which gives a normal/medium audio level.

 

The cold environment seems to have an impact on the 12v supply or draw as well.

 

Its hard to say if the demand is going down, or the supply capability is going up (with the ambient/system temperature increase).?

 

I guess that comes back to michi's suggestion to measure current draw of the sound board (and maybe MPU board). But that will take me a bit to set up since the meter has to go in line.

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Well, on TP3 when I boot the machine I have +13.12v. When I start a game that drops to 13.02v.

 

As I crank the volume, the voltage drops, but doesn't get below 12.5v before it's too loud to be in the room with it.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

My first thought would be:

Low +12 volts from the Power Supply board.

If your +12 volts is low (below 10.5 volts), check/replace the large power transistor 2N6057 on the power supply board. Sometimes the socket used to connect this transistor is corroded or simply not making good contact.

That lines up pretty closely with your symptoms, doesn't it?

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Yes, I guess I will order a new one. Mine is not in a socket though, wires are run and soldered either end, between the transistor and the PCB.

 

It may be working but beginning to fail you think?

 

As long as it isn't simply overloaded by a faulty component on the sound board would be what I wonder, as per michi's post.

 

It does show 12.7v with nothing connected.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

I'm about to do an order, I'll throw a few of these parts in the cart ;)

 

**It's now 13.2v after I disconnected the MPU and Sound boards, so it is definitely being affected by the temperature... (The PSB) That's 0.5v more than it was last night.

 

Atm the MPU connected on its own is causing a 2.5v drop (to 10.7v) on its own. The sound board is still causing around 1.0v drop as well. Both leaves it running about 10.1v right now....

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The MPU pulls on the 5v which is supplied by the 2N6057.

 

Well my MPU also has +12 supplied to it, and it is dragging it down by 2v ... ? . The 5v and -12v is rock solid on the swords of fury (4.97v to 5.00v always, and -14.2v).

 

I just un-burried the project Tomcat, the supply in that is in VGC visually, and I know it powers up, so now I will be whacking that in there to see just what will happen...

 

20180715_190809.thumb.jpg.635c1011af2ea3fef16dfe93a3908b49.jpg

 

This machine is also still properly running a plasma score display...

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So you are saying if it was the MPU or Sound boards fault then the 5v would suffer as well? (even if it is only the 12v section of the MPU that is sucking Power/faulty? or loading the power transistor)

 

I don't know if it would be classed as severe. There arent any fuses blowing? (except the 7A that has always been blown?)

 

The Bridge and Cap are both seem to be good, doesn't the 2N6057 sort out the 5v and 12v levels?

 

I have a rough idea, but I can not say I could fully explain how this particular supply board sorts out all of its voltage levels.

 

 

....... hang on a minute.

 

Okay... i just studied the circuit diagram closer... the 2N6057 is only responsible for the 5v isn't it??

 

And now the fuse that has always been blown (F5 or F6)... is ringing alarm bells because one goes to each side of the bridges AC... maybe I should replace this fuse.... but it is blown so this would suggest there may be a crook diode in the bridge? ... It's back to last night when I couldn't find a location diagram telling me what each of the fuses was for, could have done more homework though :redface....

 

Doesn't one of those fuses being out mean that the bridge is only performing half wave rectification?? ... I should have specifically tested the bridge diodes before now, duh, I'll do it now...

Edited by razorsedge
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F5 and F6 take the AC to the bridge.

 

The bridge produces unregulated 12v.

 

The 2N6057 takes the unregulated +12v and regulates it to 5v, so it's additional load on the 12v circuit.

 

If the 2N6057 is failing both the 12v and 5v circuits will suffer.

 

My understanding of electricity, if either F5 or F6 (vertical on the right) are blown 12v+, 12v- and 5v+ will not work at all as the AC circuit through the bridge isn't complete.

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F5 and F6 take the AC to the bridge.

 

The bridge produces unregulated 12v.

 

The 2N6057 takes the unregulated +12v and regulates it to 5v, so it's additional load on the 12v circuit.

 

If the 2N6057 is failing both the 12v and 5v circuits will suffer.

 

If either F5 or F6 (vertical on the right) are blown 12v+, 12v- and 5v+ will not work at all as the AC circuit through the bridge isn't complete.

 

Awesome... well my PSB has ONLY ONE 7A fuse in it, and it is still giving me all the readings I have listed to date (somehow :confused: ).... it is nearly out now....

 

I fully agree with what you are saying though... the bridge must be using ground somehow?

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Awesome... well my PSB has ONLY ONE 7A fuse in it, and it is still giving me all the readings I have listed to date (somehow :confused: ).... it is nearly out now....

 

I fully agree with what you are saying though... the bridge must be using ground somehow?

It's got two in your picture?
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Yep... the AC to positive diode in the bridge is shorted.

 

I'll put a new one in it, along with replacing the forever always blown previously unidentified fuse :lol ... and I think everything will probably be sweeeet after that.

 

It threw me because not used to there being two fuses per bridge.... Lol

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

Yeah but one of them has always been blown. I had never even removed it or worried about it before because the game was "working" ... I had assumed it was part of the HV which I knew wasn't being used. :redface

 

Never in a millionaire years did I think a shorted rectifier could still be producing all my voltages (kind of) :redface

 

Fault (tentatively) identified!!! :D

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

20180715_203447.thumb.jpg.7e2b4f2b0c4c84d25528968881caf310.jpg

 

I popped the blown fuse out and took a picture for the record...

 

I guess since it was a positive diode shorted the bridge could still half work through ground, while ever the fuse remained blown.

 

I still can't believe myself that the game was playable at all with half a rectifier at best running the whole show.... but there you go hey, it was still playing great! , apart from the resets when you turned up the volume... or when it got real cold.

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All sorted, playing the game and TP3 is 11.5v with volume set to wake up the neighbors level :D

 

**Ripple across the 18millifarad cap also dropped to 0.31vAC , which was to be expected...

 

Thanks a Millionaire for all your assistance and time @ajfclark !! ... Much appreciated!

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