Jump to content
Due to a large amount of spamers, accounts will now have to be approved by the Admins so please be patient. ×
  • 0
IGNORED

T2 Plunger Solenoid (9) Issue [SOLVED]


LAP

Question

I am trying to fix a mates T2 which has an issue with the plunger coil locking on as soon as I turn the machine on and then the F103 goes poof.....

 

So I replaced the fuse and unplugged J127 and all worked except for the solenoids associated with J127.

 

Next step was to remove wire J127-1 (plunger solenoid 9) from plug J127 and plug it back into the board..... all solenoid worked except plunger.... so was sure it was just a blow transistor so checked Q58 and sure enough it had blown....

 

Feeling very smug I replaced transistor Q58 and pre-driver Q57 thinking I was going to flick the switch and all would be good... after turning on the machine no locked coil but pinball can be cruel.... as soon as I ran the solenoid test for solenoid 9 poof went both fuse F103 and my smug confidence....

 

Back to square one as now when I turn on the machine the plunger solenoid locks on and blows the fuse....

 

Other things I checked....

 

  • Plunger coil resistance is 3.7 ohms.
  • The plunger coil lugs does not look like it's shorting on the cabinet (apparently a common problem)

 

 

I am going to obviously replace Q58 & Q57 again but looking for other suggestions to check before doing this all over again....

 

 

Jason

Edited by LAP
Link to comment
Share on other sites

24 answers to this question

Recommended Posts

  • 0

" suggestions to check before doing this all over again.... "

 

Although the coil doesn't seem to short with cabinet, it could be the wiring somewhere else.

 

Unplug J107 and J127 and measure continuity from the Violet-x wire (vio-grn ?) on J107-1 to GND. Does that have a short to GND ? ( or through coil would be ~3.7 Ohm )

Same with IDC J127-1 BRN-BLK wire. Do you measure a short or very low resistance to GND ?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0

T2 Plunger Solenoid (9) Issue Driving Me Crazy

 

" suggestions to check before doing this all over again.... "

 

Although the coil doesn't seem to short with cabinet, it could be the wiring somewhere else.

 

Unplug J107 and J127 and measure continuity from the Violet-x wire (vio-grn ?) on J107-1 to GND. Does that have a short to GND ? ( or through coil would be ~3.7 Ohm )

Same with IDC J127-1 BRN-BLK wire. Do you measure a short or very low resistance to GND ?

 

So often when I am struggling to troubleshoot I forget that often the issue is very simple and going back to basics is a good idea so I have gone back to making a list in Excel and massively over documented what I have tested.... With any luck it helps someone else someday if an when I get to the bottom of this but also provides more granular detail to other who can possibly help me figure this one out....

 

See attached details of all the Multi meter readings (Continuity, Resistance & Voltage) I have taken at a variety of point....

 

Capture111.thumb.PNG.902ed20db52293368e58ae760bf32e7b.PNG

FYI my original post had an error in the Ohm reading on the Coil so should have been ~5 and not 3.7 (Corrected in the this post)

 

Could it possibly be an issue with the diode on the board associated with Q58?

 

Any help on this would be appreciated...

 

I am so frustrated that if I solve this on based on AA solution I will donate $25 to AA.....

 

 

 

Thanks

 

Jason

Edited by LAP
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0
I would change the diode and if no change swap the coil. Or swap power driver board to confirm or eliminate that as an issue

 

Sent from my ALP-L29 using Tapatalk

 

Yes change the diode. The little buggers can have a habit of checking out OK with a multimeter in diode test or continuity test. However under mains voltage they can breakdown ! I have seen this before, and its very annoying , especially after you've changed the transistor a couple of times ! Good luck

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0
I am trying to fix a mates T2 which has an issue with the plunger coil locking on as soon as I turn the machine on and then the F103 goes poof.....

 

So I replaced the fuse and unplugged J127 and all worked except for the solenoids associated with J127.

 

Next step was to remove wire J127-1 (plunger solenoid 9) from plug J127 and plug it back into the board..... all solenoid worked except plunger.... so was sure it was just a blow transistor so checked Q58 and sure enough it had blown....

 

Feeling very smug I replaced transistor Q58 and pre-driver Q57 thinking I was going to flick the switch and all would be good... after turning on the machine no locked coil but pinball can be cruel.... as soon as I ran the solenoid test for solenoid 9 poof went both fuse F103 and my smug confidence....

 

Back to square one as now when I turn on the machine the plunger solenoid locks on and blows the fuse....

 

Other things I checked....

 

  • Plunger coil resistance is 3.7 ohms.
  • The plunger coil lugs does not look like it's shorting on the cabinet (apparently a common problem)

 

 

I am going to obviously replace Q58 & Q57 again but looking for other suggestions to check before doing this all over again....

 

 

Jason

 

I have seen this before on T2 and it drove me crazy for two weeks @greydog

I believe it is a design flaw on the driver board relating to the backlash from the coil going through the TIP and destroying it.

On Q58 the track from the connector pin goes past the TIP before the diode unlike most of the others that go past the diode before the TIP

For some reason on other games on other solenoids this is ok but on T2 being a 23-800 coil for the shooter it puts a lot of stress on the board.

Once the fault occurs it will keep failing until you change the board or modify it.

I was repairing a board over and over and after testing it numerous times on various machines it would always fail on T2 even with a new coil.

I would get a one maybe two firings of the coil and the TIP would blow locking the coil on.

The only way I found to rectify this issue was to replace the diode with a larger one like a 1n5401 and on the solder side of the board bend the leg of the diode down to the connector pin and solder it directly instead of letting it run through the board track.

Once this was done, the board performed without any further issues.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0
I have seen this before on T2 and it drove me crazy for two weeks @greydog

I believe it is a design flaw on the driver board relating to the backlash from the coil going through the TIP and destroying it.

On Q58 the track from the connector pin goes past the TIP before the diode unlike most of the others that go past the diode before the TIP

For some reason on other games on other solenoids this is ok but on T2 being a 23-800 coil for the shooter it puts a lot of stress on the board.

Once the fault occurs it will keep failing until you change the board or modify it.

I was repairing a board over and over and after testing it numerous times on various machines it would always fail on T2 even with a new coil.

I would get a one maybe two firings of the coil and the TIP would blow locking the coil on.

The only way I found to rectify this issue was to replace the diode with a larger one like a 1n5401 and on the solder side of the board bend the leg of the diode down to the connector pin and solder it directly instead of letting it run through the board track.

Once this was done, the board performed without any further issues.

 

What about adding a diode to the coil itself?

 

 

Pinball Pinot & Pizza Appreciation Society Founding Member

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0
The measurements seem all ok. So it is likely the driverboard.

If possible, check if U4-2 is stuck 'low'.

 

How do I check this?

 

 

Pinball Pinot & Pizza Appreciation Society Founding Member

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0
What about adding a diode to the coil itself?

 

 

Pinball Pinot & Pizza Appreciation Society Founding Member

 

I think I did try that and it didn't fix it

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

How do I check this?

 

 

Pinball Pinot & Pizza Appreciation Society Founding Member

 

Easiest way to check if the board is ok is repair it as you have previously and try it in another machine

I know on whodunnit that q58 drives one of the slingshots and when testing I stood there in test mode activating the sling over and over and over without any failure, as soon as I tried it in T2 it failed

Funny enough I have seen on at least two other boards where q58 has been repeatedly replaced one of them on another T2

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0

Red lead to pin 2 of U4 and black lead to GND TestPoint

You can leave J107 and J127 unplugged. Just turn machine on and measure as in picture.

Close to 5 Volt should be seen in display of multimeter.

 

If it shows 0.x Volts, ic U4 is blown.

AA0-F-1.jpg.1839182b61857bfb45d11f2a055c00c1.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0
How do I check this?

 

 

Pinball Pinot & Pizza Appreciation Society Founding Member

 

You'll need a logic probe. Or you can test each of the legs of the IC with your meter. If you're lucky you'll find one has failed. However the logic probe is the most accurate test.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0
I have seen this before on T2 and it drove me crazy for two weeks @greydog

I believe it is a design flaw on the driver board relating to the backlash from the coil going through the TIP and destroying it.

On Q58 the track from the connector pin goes past the TIP before the diode unlike most of the others that go past the diode before the TIP

For some reason on other games on other solenoids this is ok but on T2 being a 23-800 coil for the shooter it puts a lot of stress on the board.

Once the fault occurs it will keep failing until you change the board or modify it.

I was repairing a board over and over and after testing it numerous times on various machines it would always fail on T2 even with a new coil.

I would get a one maybe two firings of the coil and the TIP would blow locking the coil on.

The only way I found to rectify this issue was to replace the diode with a larger one like a 1n5401 and on the solder side of the board bend the leg of the diode down to the connector pin and solder it directly instead of letting it run through the board track.

Once this was done, the board performed without any further issues.

 

 

Not looking forward to replacing Q57 &58 several times while it try get to the bottom of this....

 

How about jimmy rigging 3 wires from the Driver board to a bread board and so can potentially save doing several desolder and solder of the transistors? That way I just unplug the blown transistors and replug the new one in ?

 

Any chance a hobby breadboard can’t handle the current ?

 

 

 

 

Pinball Pinot & Pizza Appreciation Society Founding Member

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0
Red lead to pin 2 of U4 and black lead to GND TestPoint

You can leave J107 and J127 unplugged. Just turn machine on and measure as in picture.

Close to 5 Volt should be seen in display of multimeter.

 

If it shows 0.x Volts, ic U4 is blown.

 

Thanks I will do this once I have replaced the diode and transistors (q58 & q57) on the board... could I do this test before doing the other board work?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0

Thanks for the posts to try help me get to the bottom of this.

 

I know this is another long granular post, sorry, but I am still learning learning and documenting as I go which helps me plus the hope is it helps someone else one day too...

 

Below is a step by step list of my next steps based on the suggestions....

 

 

==================================

Current state of the board & schematic (marked up)

==================================

 

The board has been repaired several times and the Q58 area is looking a little rough....

 

FYI Underside pic taken just before I removed the Q58....

 

130412888_t2_Q58Summary_v2.thumb.JPG.d626eb35938ce7d8fe42feb6d32a51ce.JPG

 

I think I have the schematic correctly marked out....

 

Can someone confirm where the traces should go for each of the Q58 legs...?

what are the key continuity checks I should do once down before plugging it in....?

 

 

==================================

Boots suggested Diode Mod

==================================

The only way I found to rectify this issue was to replace the diode with a larger one like a 1n5401

 

I cant find any of these on RS Components or RTBB (only PSPA ) ... I am looking on reducing delivery costs so prefer RS as delivery is free and I already I have a whole lot of other items in my cart art RTBB.... Can you suggest any larger diodes which RTBB or RS sell?

 

@Boots when you say:

"on the solder side of the board bend the leg of the diode down to the connector pin and solder it directly instead of letting it run through the board track."...

 

Can you use the picture above to draw in what you mean just to be 100% I don't misunderstand this and make things worse....

 

 

 

 

==================================

Test Resistors R98-101

==================================

 

 

Once you removed the old transistors, measure the resistors as well, they could be burnt. (R98-99-100-101)

 

Do I test it with the Q57 & Q58 transitors out of the board or can I measure them once the transistors have been replaced?

 

 

Again it does not look like RTBB does not stocks any of the resistors... can they be substituted ?

 

R98 = 5010-09416-00 = Resistor 470 1/4w 5%

R99 = 5010-08991-00 = Resistor 4.7k 1/4w 5%

R100 = 5010-08997-00 = Resistor 2.7k 1/4w 5% (not even PSPA stock this one)

R101 = 5010-08993-00 = Resistor 68 1/2W 5%

 

 

==================================

U4 Chip Test

==================================

 

AA0-F-1.jpg.bc7c742df9ee22b2bb2d496bf8bc08d6.jpg

 

Red lead to pin 2 of U4 and black lead to GND TestPoint

You can leave J107 and J127 unplugged. Just turn machine on and measure as in picture.

Close to 5 Volt should be seen in display of multimeter.

 

If it shows 0.x Volts, ic U4 is blown.

 

==================================

Add a diode to the Plunger Coil

==================================

 

Add a Diode on the Plunger Coil with the band on the "+50V Common Violet-Green wire" ... if you get the band on the wrong side then BOOM!

 

diode.JPG.560700d2a0388d71d79993f855dc2bde.JPG

 

==================================

Test Repaired Power Driver in another machine

==================================

 

I will test the repaired board in a HS2 - Getaway

 

==================================

Pray it Works in T2

==================================

 

Once it works in T2.... Click Donate to AA.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Jason

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0

Here it is a search on RS came up with lots of hits

https://au.rs-online.com/web/c/semiconductors/discrete-semiconductors/rectifier-schottky-diodes/?searchTerm=1n5401&h=s&sra=oss&redirect-relevancy-data=636F3D3126696E3D4931384E53656172636847656E65726963266C753D656E266D6D3D6D61746368616C6C7061727469616C26706D3D5E2E2A2426706F3D31313326736E3D592673743D43415443485F414C4C5F44454641554C542673633D592677633D4E4F4E45267573743D316E35343031267374613D316E3534303126&dym=1n540

 

There's also 1n5404 1n5408 that are higher voltage

On second thoughts I think I may have used 1n5404 to give the voltage plenty of buffer

As to how to connect it, the schematic you have posted shows it exactly, one end of the standard diode connects to j127 via the board tracks.

All you need to do is simply bypass this by putting the new diode in the board as the old one was but instead of soldering it in and cutting the legs off you bend the one leg that would normally lead to the connector pin onto the connector pin and solder it there

You can still solder the diode to the normal solder pads but this will be a an extra connection

Leave the track that runs from the diode to the tip102 but remove the track that goes from the tip102 to the connector pin that way it has to go through the diode leg to get to the tip102

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

OK just had another look at your photo and you can see how the middle pin on the tip102 goes directly to the pin that connects to the coil, then there is this pissy little track that goes from the tip102 to the diode (yours has been replaced with a wire). If the connection for this track is weakened by desoldering or stress during game play then the connection to the diode is broken and the tip102 cops it.

If you look at the rest of the tip102's the track goes to the diode first then to the tip102, this is the problem with q58.

Add to this the reasonably high power coil that is used a lot and it is a disaster waiting to happen.

By bending the leg (your "grey" one)of the diode down to the connector pin and breaking the direct connection from the connector to the tip102 you eliminate this issue.

You will have to reinstate the connection from the diode to the tip102 though

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0

Agreed with that the repaired trace from Diode (anode) to TIP102 (collector) has probably no connection to each other.

That said, in the photo of PCB it is from light-blue to yellow and in schematic you circled it from dark-blue to yellow.

 

you could test the resistors when Q57+58 were out of the board, but the resistors don't look burnt on the photo.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0

OK just had another look at your photo and you can see how the middle pin on the tip102 goes directly to the pin that connects to the coil, then there is this pissy little track that goes from the tip102 to the diode (yours has been replaced with a wire). If the connection for this track is weakened by desoldering or stress during game play then the connection to the diode is broken and the tip102 cops it.

If you look at the rest of the tip102's the track goes to the diode first then to the tip102, this is the problem with q58.

Add to this the reasonably high power coil that is used a lot and it is a disaster waiting to happen.

By bending the leg (your "grey" one)of the diode down to the connector pin and breaking the direct connection from the connector to the tip102 you eliminate this issue.

You will have to reinstate the connection from the diode to the tip102 though

 

 

I am not sure I follow your description perfectly.... so to be explicit numbered and stated as I understood it in the points and new pictures of the board and schematic below.... I am sure I am missed something

 

  1. Replace the Diode extending the diode leg from the banded (cathode) side (blue circle) to the Pin J127-1 (Red Circle)
  2. Make sure there is a good jumper wire from the unbanded side (anode) of the Diode (Light Blue Circle) to the center of the TIP102 transistor (Yellow Circle)
  3. Make sure there is a good connection to from the Dark Orange Circled leg of the TIP 102 Transistor to the Resistor R101 (Light Purple Circle)
  4. Make sure there is a good connection from Light Orange leg of the TIP102 transistor to the Ground Trace
  5. Remove the trace on the back of the board which runs from the center of the TIP102 transistor (Yellow Circle) to the Pin J127-1 (Red Circle) (Shown as a Black X)

 

 

t2_solution3.thumb.JPG.9abca2e709dd0ea584ca5b0411b0987a.JPG

 

@Boots @zaza thanks again for spending the time on this....

 

 

Jason

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0
I am not sure I follow your description perfectly.... so to be explicit numbered and stated as I understood it in the points and new pictures of the board and schematic below.... I am sure I am missed something

 

  1. Replace the Diode extending the diode leg from the banded (cathode) side (blue circle) to the Pin J127-1 (Red Circle)

 

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]131684[/ATTACH]

 

@Boots @zaza thanks again for spending the time on this....

 

 

Jason

 

Non banded grey or light blue to 127-1 not the banded side

The banded side goes to 50v

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0

For some reason your schematic pictures have the +50Volt connected to J127-1, that will instant blow the Tip102 when activated.

The +50Volt should only be connected to the Cathode (banded) side of the diode on the circuit board !

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0
For some reason your schematic pictures have the +50Volt connected to J127-1, that will instant blow the Tip102 when activated.

The +50Volt should only be connected to the Cathode (banded) side of the diode on the circuit board !

 

 

I think I have fixed this in the schematic ... looks like an error in the old schematic I used... I have also included a new Schematic I found in a BSD manual which I think is much cleaner and accurately reflects the setup...

 

 

 

 

Non banded grey or light blue to 127-1 not the banded side

The banded side goes to 50v

 

So take 2.....

 

  1. Replace the Diode insert a jumper wire (needs to be insulated to avoid shorting on other tracers?) from the diode leg from the non-banded (anode) side (grey or light blue circle) to the Pin J127-1 (Red Circle)
  2. Make sure there is a good jumper wire from the unbanded side (anode) of the Diode (Light Blue Circle) to the center of the TIP102 transistor (Yellow Circle)
  3. Make sure there is a good connection to from the Dark Orange Circled leg of the TIP 102 Transistor to the Resistor R101 (Light Purple Circle)
  4. Make sure there is a good connection from Light Orange leg of the TIP102 transistor to the Ground Trace
  5. Remove the trace on the back of the board which runs from the center of the TIP102 transistor (Yellow Circle) to the Pin J127-1 (Red Circle) (Shown as a Black X)

 

 

331830907_t2_Q58Summary_v3.thumb.JPG.d0735767e8aca571602eff489588051f.JPG

 

I hope this is better....

 

One question I have is if I have the jumper wire unbanded side (anode) of the Diode (Light Blue Circle) to the center of the TIP102 transistor (Yellow Circle) (Step 2) & I have the a jumper wire from the diode leg from the non-banded (anode) side (grey or light blue circle) to the Pin J127-1 (Red Circle) (Step 1) what is the poingint of remove the trace on the back of the board which runs from the center of the TIP102 transistor (Yellow Circle) to the Pin J127-1 (Step 5) ?

 

 

 

Thanks

 

Jason

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0

So take 2.....

 

  1. Replace the Diode insert a jumper wire (needs to be insulated to avoid shorting on other tracers?) from the diode leg from the non-banded (anode) side (grey or light blue circle) to the Pin J127-1 (Red Circle)
  2. Make sure there is a good jumper wire from the unbanded side (anode) of the Diode (Light Blue Circle) to the center of the TIP102 transistor (Yellow Circle)
  3. Make sure there is a good connection to from the Dark Orange Circled leg of the TIP 102 Transistor to the Resistor R101 (Light Purple Circle)
  4. Make sure there is a good connection from Light Orange leg of the TIP102 transistor to the Ground Trace
  5. Remove the trace on the back of the board which runs from the center of the TIP102 transistor (Yellow Circle) to the Pin J127-1 (Red Circle) (Shown as a Black X)

 

 

Nearly there....

Replace the Diode, BEND THE LEG OF THE DIODE from the non-banded (anode) side (grey or light blue circle) to the Pin J127-1 (Red Circle) (NO need to be insulated)

 

One question I have is if I have the jumper wire unbanded side (anode) of the Diode (Light Blue Circle) to the center of the TIP102 transistor (Yellow Circle) (Step 2) & I have the a jumper wire from the diode leg from the non-banded (anode) side (grey or light blue circle) to the Pin J127-1 (Red Circle) (Step 1) what is the point of removing the trace on the back of the board which runs from the center of the TIP102 transistor (Yellow Circle) to the Pin J127-1 (Step 5) ?

 

Because it means the the connection from j127 goes to the diode first, going to the tip102 first is what causes this issue in the first place.

Bending the leg from the diode also means that the connection to the diode cannot be easily broken because there is no second join unlike a jumper wire.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0

FIXED!

 

Mod worked a charm... thanks. @Boots & @zaza

 

t2_solved.JPG.aef70c46fafd7b3d64feaaff59f91868.JPG

 

t2_solved_back.JPG.1524e8f162955dee0e7e76f4064c220f.JPG

I put added some shrink tub on the diode leg at the back just in case....

 

The board is a little worse for wear after 6 or 7 transistor changes over the last few months plus my soldering is a little ropy as my soldering iron gave up the ghost and had to use a butane soldering iron with a larger tip.... but the got there in the end.

 

 

Now need to work out how to donate $25 to the AA cause as promised... and find a new soldering iron.

 

 

Jason

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0

Only just read this post but thought I could throw a few suggestions in just in case.

 

I've had three machines, a T2 ball launcher, a Getaway ball launcher and a WC94 knocker where the coil itself has managed to wear through the paper on the coil and rubbed the insulation off the coil winding making the coil mount itself live.

 

All turned out to be simply the way the last windings on the coil were wound on the coil making them come out flush with the side of the coil bobbin and over time the wear occurred.

 

Not an issue unless the coil mount bracket comes in contact with something that is earthed...The ball kickers...heaps of metal around them in there location and the WC94 knocker coil...the ventilation mesh at the top of the back box that in itself wasn't an issue till the day the insulation on the knocker winding failed through years of rubbing and then cased a dead short.

 

T2 is also a machine that uses a "tieback diode" listed as .....violet/orange SOL. 28 Tieback diode J122-9 on the very last entry on the Interboard Wiring / Solenoid Circuits in your wiring diagram.

 

This is an arse when it gives trouble through breaking or shorting out and it is located on the very top of the underside of the playfield up around where the skull is located. I had one that failed and no where in the manual does it actually say where it is located. Take it from me, it is around there somewhere and using the violet/orange wire to trace it you will find it.

 

Never had or even heard of a "tieback diode" before except on T2 but I may be mistaken and just been lucky,who knows but I have had a problem with one and it was on a T2.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...