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Are we heading back towards the Cliff?


Rawdon

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Thought I would put some thoughts out there, for everyone to digest or dismiss. Of recent I have been playing a lot of new games and keeping in touch with most

Pinball Podcasts and a lot of "Collectors". Meeting and chatting to Gary Stern listening to his seminar, I have this call it cynicism regarding the Pinball ecology.

I have been playing pinball for 47 years and been buying, selling and restoring games in Sydney for over 30 years. I have seen pinball on its knees in the mid 80's, only to

resurrect in the early 90's and die off again before the end of the 90's. And now boom again currently. Pinball appears to be like the stock market as popularity grows so does production and innovation and demand. I listened to Gary at Pinfest telling me that there are over 300 staff at Stern now, A whole department just doing animation for the LCD screen of all new games. That in itself made me stop and think? Ok a whole department creating something that basically does nothing for the player flipping the ball around the playfield!

 

In point I was at a pinball tournament last weekend where there was only NIB games, Batman 66, and Aerosmith, were amongst them, don't get me wrong magnificent machines and all, just stunning! But with 52 year old reflexes my main problem is the speed of the game (don't start me on TNA just made me look unco-ordinated at best). Anyway as I discussed this with some of the other competitors as I failed to make really any impact score wise or game wise, one of the other stalwarts enquired but did I follow what was happening on the LCD screen. LCD screen hell I was too busy concentrating on keeping the ball in play, to be looking at the LCD screen, which brings me to my point, If Pinball Companies are now spending massive amounts of money on LCD animatiomation, is this money that could be better spent on the actual game, or not at all?

 

Getting back to the original thought.

 

Are we heading towards the cliff........again.

 

Pinball in my opinion, is self defeating, every game produced is trying to be better than the last one manufactured. So in order to do that we need to invest resources to achieve this. Now when we hit the Jackpot and manufacture our "Greatest Ever"! How do that affect next models. We saw this in the 90's with games like Terminator, Addams Family,

Getaway, Fishtales, I as a small operator who had to keep up with the latest and greatest, soon realised that the Scared Stiff's, Theatre of Magic's etc I didn't need these as the earlier games were just as good commercially years later. So basically Bally / Williams couldn't compete with there previous products. Take this to today's market particularly in Australia the bulk of new games are going straight into private homes which was almost unheard od 20 years ago. With NIB prices starting at $8 000 AU up to $14 000 dollars, how much longer can Aussie Joe Public continue to pay that sort of money for in essence a very fun toy! Surely this money is going on home mortgages, or the credit card

(Pray not)! We can't all have a rich uncle "Tom" who recently passed away leaving the bulk of his fortune to his favourite nephew?

I get that people are flipping games quickly with minimal loss to pick up the next, but that relies on new people stepping in to pick up at that point, a bit like a Pyramid scheme which is great whilst more people enter everything is fine probably where we are at the moment towards the back end. But I have to say I have been to peoples houses where 8 NIB LE's is not unusual. That is not of concern to me good luck to them as they enjoy what they are doing, more NIB's to you. What I am getting at is the people I think are getting to the end of there collections, Maybe market close to market saturation. I think the spare rooms / garages are full. I have all the games I want to get, So the Stern's of the World Pinball community might want to start reigning in some of the excesses of Pinball development or at least start to predict a down turn, The Spooky's of the world are sitting in the prime seat of Pinball Manufacturing. Basically there model is where Gary Stern was at the turn of the Century 18 years which allowed them to sail through the low curve of the cycle we all get to point where we sit back and go

 

"You know what I have the Best games ever made"!

 

That I believe isn't too far away again. Another little boom may occur with a number of new players that are entering the market right at this moment, Further stretching the Pinball dollar.

 

Hang for the ride I been through it a couple of times. Pinball will never die, it just self corrects..... again.

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I think the word you are looking for is “saturation”.

 

Supply is going to potentially outpace demand within the next 12 months.

 

If the likes of deep root deliver what they say “6+ models available” at different price points people are spoilt for choice.

 

From the for sale threads it “feels” like that already. Plenty of pins that should disappear just aren’t. It could just be people are focusing on newer machines or could be resource limitations as you said ( space / money ).

 

 

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Interesting thoughts Rawdon. I have often wondered what private collections will look like in 10-15 years when the ACDC's, Metallica's and Ironmaiden's are no longer NiB like.

 

I think that a lot of young people now are seeking a physical experience as digital experiences become the norm. For example, these days lots of people have a kindle book reader, but I hear a lot of people saying they appreciate the experience of having a real book in their hands. A similar thing is happening in the music industry with some people returning to vinyl records. And I think that some people are drawn to Pinball in that same way. In opposition to video games, it is a game which includes a physical aspect.

I think people are starting to appreciate the physicality of the experience, now that the're used to digital media.

 

I think that the choice of digital or physical is revealing a dichotomy among people. Simply put, you have people who prefer the authenticity of physicality, and people who prefer the convenience of digital. Both have positives and negatives and it simply comes down to a choice.

I believe that because the digital age is so young its hard to say that there is a trend here that's repeating itself. It may be that as everyone is given more choice (more digital options) some choose seek out physical experiences.

 

This is my theory on what is going on, but I could be wrong.

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I get that people are flipping games quickly with minimal loss to pick up the next, but that relies on new people stepping in to pick up at that point, a bit like a Pyramid scheme which is great whilst more people enter everything is fine probably where we are at the moment towards the back end.

 

When you're describing it like that, it makes me think of a Ponzi scheme rather than a pyramid.

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Interesting thoughts Rawdon. I have often wondered what private collections will look like in 10-15 years when the ACDC's, Metallica's and Ironmaiden's are no longer NiB like.

 

I think that a lot of young people now are seeking a physical experience as digital experiences become the norm. For example, these days lots of people have a kindle book reader, but I hear a lot of people saying they appreciate the experience of having a real book in their hands. A similar thing is happening in the music industry with some people returning to vinyl records. And I think that some people are drawn to Pinball in that same way. In opposition to video games, it is a game which includes a physical aspect.

I think people are starting to appreciate the physicality of the experience, now that the're used to digital media.

 

I think that the choice of digital or physical is revealing a dichotomy among people. Simply put, you have people who prefer the authenticity of physicality, and people who prefer the convenience of digital. Both have positives and negatives and it simply comes down to a choice.

I believe that because the digital age is so young its hard to say that there is a trend here that's repeating itself. It may be that as everyone is given more choice (more digital options) some choose seek out physical experiences.

 

This is my theory on what is going on, but I could be wrong.

 

Also can be applied to the social aspect of gaming.

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To much for a home toy and they take to long to pay for themselves as an arcade machine and that is just one thing wrong with current machines IMHO.

 

Games are simply to difficult to attract new players is also another big disadvantage.

 

While I enjoy playing late model machines, I know deep down this is not what is actually good for the long term interests of an arcade machine.

 

To many rules that take to long to learn and skills that take a long time to develop on a machine that you need to pay to play kills pinballs as a good arcade machine.

 

Honestly I think something totally different is required or start doing remakes of machines like 8 Ball Deluxe and drop the price accordingly so an operator can say, now at that price I may be able to make some money off it.

 

Suggestions on how to lower prices....

 

Piss off the LCD displays with there videos that no one but the home owner or the absolute fanatic ever looks at.

Drop the massive rulesets that are only ever achieved every 200 games by one that has absolutely mastered the game.

Get rid of the electronic flipper boards that only make the flippers more difficult to maintain for the operator.

Stop using big name and high dollar titles.

Most importantly, reduce the price of the machine with all these savings.

 

I think 8 Ball deluxe would be ideal as the rules are simple enough for the new player to understand and still stand a chance of learning how to master the flippers but also understand what is required in the game but most importantly, 8 Ball Deluxe as a brand new machine would attract us old veterans to play because we remember the machine being a good game to play and consequently pay to play.

 

I understand 8 ball deluxe has patents on parts like the inline drop targets but I'm sure the saving on other reductions like 30 guys doing nothing but video would more than pay for the use of these and other ideas and of coarse the use of the original name.

 

8 ball deluxe is one of many that could make fine reproductions yet be cheap enough to make, buy and therefore operate.

 

Pinball does have it's ups and downs and the ups are always when money gets tight in the economy but that has always been the case when they were being operated and were actual money making machines for the owners.

 

I hate to think what would happen now if money suddenly got tight resulting in the "I must have the latest brigade of home owners", suddenly in no position to buy the latest pieces and no one in a position to buy there older pieces for vitally what they, the NIB owners paid for them originally.

 

I think the industry has to start making pieces that have more chance of being operated rather than mainly home ownership but these are just my thoughts.

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Pinballs sound like new cars- no manufacturer makes a simple one, they've gotta outdo their last effort (and inevitably stuff up). Toyota camrys were better 20 years ago for example. I don't play pinball often at all so would prefer a fun machine over something with too many features. Likewise Autosteve I didn't get a chance to look at the screen to see what the heck was going on.
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I remember when i was younger somebody saying" this is the recession we had to have..." lotsa people struggled to pay their loans. Like others have said when the interest rates go up and people have less $$$ to spend (especially all those people that want new fancy houses at crazy prices) we will see pinball prices fall at least for awhile. As for new machines i guess those animation people may have to go. Supply and demand and all that.

 

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Are we heading back towards the Cliff?

 

Only TZ and Bjork, can get thrown off the cliff. Everything else has a chance.

 

Here's an idea guys. Did anyone, make a pinball (when they were young) with, Nails, Rubber Bands and two Clothes Pegs? Be inspired and build your own creation!

 

Yes, I did. Plus you forgot to mention the marble as the ball. I used a beachy. A coloured triped white marble, I thought my prized clay one looked to boring.

 

 

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To much for a home toy and they take to long to pay for themselves as an arcade machine and that is just one thing wrong with current machines IMHO.

 

Games are simply to difficult to attract new players is also another big disadvantage.

 

While I enjoy playing late model machines, I know deep down this is not what is actually good for the long term interests of an arcade machine.

 

To many rules that take to long to learn and skills that take a long time to develop on a machine that you need to pay to play kills pinballs as a good arcade machine.

 

Honestly I think something totally different is required or start doing remakes of machines like 8 Ball Deluxe and drop the price accordingly so an operator can say, now at that price I may be able to make some money off it.

 

Suggestions on how to lower prices....

 

Piss off the LCD displays with there videos that no one but the home owner or the absolute fanatic ever looks at.

Drop the massive rulesets that are only ever achieved every 200 games by one that has absolutely mastered the game.

Get rid of the electronic flipper boards that only make the flippers more difficult to maintain for the operator.

Stop using big name and high dollar titles.

Most importantly, reduce the price of the machine with all these savings.

 

I think 8 Ball deluxe would be ideal as the rules are simple enough for the new player to understand and still stand a chance of learning how to master the flippers but also understand what is required in the game but most importantly, 8 Ball Deluxe as a brand new machine would attract us old veterans to play because we remember the machine being a good game to play and consequently pay to play.

 

I understand 8 ball deluxe has patents on parts like the inline drop targets but I'm sure the saving on other reductions like 30 guys doing nothing but video would more than pay for the use of these and other ideas and of coarse the use of the original name.

 

8 ball deluxe is one of many that could make fine reproductions yet be cheap enough to make, buy and therefore operate.

 

Pinball does have it's ups and downs and the ups are always when money gets tight in the economy but that has always been the case when they were being operated and were actual money making machines for the owners.

 

I hate to think what would happen now if money suddenly got tight resulting in the "I must have the latest brigade of home owners", suddenly in no position to buy the latest pieces and no one in a position to buy there older pieces for vitally what they, the NIB owners paid for them originally.

 

I think the industry has to start making pieces that have more chance of being operated rather than mainly home ownership but these are just my thoughts.

 

all the patents have expired, and I can arrange a license to build it if someone bank rolls it

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I cannot wait for the correction, then the few remaining games on my want list will become affordable

 

IMHO, most people who buy NIB are those who just want a machine in their games room, they dont care about the art, or the history, or even how to fix. all they want is a new toy

 

And thats being proven right now. Some just have no idea what they are getting theselves into.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

The best year for pinball containers to Australia would have to be 2009-2011. We really cleaned up then. Plentiful supply, fair pricing and a wide variety of titles. The GFC might have helped this period.

 

Parity in the dollar was one of the reasons all imports boomed. The USA never looked so affordable in 2011 I profited from that trip.

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all the patents have expired, and I can arrange a license to build it if someone bank rolls it

 

Thanks for that information. Just curious, have all Bally/ Williams patents expired?. If not, how long do they last?

 

It is this particular patent I am interested in issued in 1997....

 

https://www.ipdb.org/files/4354/pinball_circus_patent.pdf

 

I'm not interested in doing a remake of this title but am interested in using potions of it's design that I can't see covered by this patent but I am no lawyer.

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Thanks for that information. Just curious, have all Bally/ Williams patents expired?. If not, how long do they last?

 

It is this particular patent I am interested in issued in 1997....

 

https://www.ipdb.org/files/4354/pinball_circus_patent.pdf

 

I'm not interested in doing a remake of this title but am interested in using potions of it's design that I can't see covered by this patent but I am no lawyer.

 

I think Homepin was waiting for some patents to expire to produce some parts

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Thanks for that information. Just curious, have all Bally/ Williams patents expired?. If not, how long do they last?

 

It is this particular patent I am interested in issued in 1997....

 

https://www.ipdb.org/files/4354/pinball_circus_patent.pdf

 

I'm not interested in doing a remake of this title but am interested in using potions of it's design that I can't see covered by this patent but I am no lawyer.

 

That was one of my patents assigned to planetary pinball and is still active due to cirqus maximus using patent from pps for pinball circus

 

As part of my agreement I licensed back the use of the patents but only for my own use

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

That was one of my patents assigned to planetary pinball and is still active due to cirqus maximus using patent from pps for pinball circus

 

As part of my agreement I licensed back the use of the patents but only for my own use

 

Total Assignments: 2

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Application #:

08547958

Filing Dt:

10/25/1995

Patent #:

5632482

Issue Dt:

05/27/1997

PCT #:

NONE

Intl Reg #:

 

Publication #:

NONE

Pub Dt:

 

Inventor:

PYTHON ANGHELO

Title:

VERTICALLY DISPOSED MULTI-LEVEL PINBALL GAME

Assignment: 1

 

 

 

Reel/Frame:

022542 / 0140

Received: 04/13/2009

Recorded: 04/10/2009

Mailed: 04/16/2009

Pages: 5

Conveyance:

ASSIGNMENT OF ASSIGNORS INTEREST (SEE DOCUMENT FOR DETAILS).

Assignor:

 

 

WILLIAMS ELECTRONICS GAMES, INC.

 

 

Exec Dt:

03/31/2009

Assignee:

MR. PINBALL AUSTRALIA PTY LTD

4/993 NORTH ROAD

MURRUMBEENA, VICTORIA, AUSTRALIA 3163

Correspondent:

WAYNE GILLARD

MR. PINBALL AUSTRALIA PTY LTD.

4/993 NORTH ROAD

MURRUMBEENA, VICTORIA, AUSTRALIA 3163

Assignment: 2

 

 

 

Reel/Frame:

025095 / 0859

Received: 10/07/2010

Recorded: 10/07/2010

Mailed: 10/07/2010

Pages: 5

Conveyance:

ASSIGNMENT OF ASSIGNORS INTEREST (SEE DOCUMENT FOR DETAILS).

Assignor:

 

 

MR PINBALL AUSTRALIA PTY LTD

 

 

Exec Dt:

10/07/2010

Assignee:

PLANETARY PINBALL SUPPLY, INC

1530 MERIDIAN AVE

SAN JOSE, CALIFORNIA 95125

Correspondent:

SARAH JANE

FENTON STREET

HUNTINGDALE, 3166 AUSTRALIA

 

 

 

Search Results as of: 10/24/2018 05:23:30 AM

 

Disclaimer:

Assignment information on the assignment database reflects assignment documents that have been actually recorded.

If the assignment for a patent was not recorded, the name of the assignee on the patent application publication or patent

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Wow, that wasn't quite the response I was expecting but at least now I suppose you may be able to answer exactly what this patent would prevent me from using in my design of a HomeBrew.

 

My understanding after reading the patent mentions the use of a video sized cabinet to make for a small footprint of a pinball machine?.

 

Is that all the patent is intended to protect?.

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