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New IFPA Aus/NZ Flip Frenzy guidelines


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Over the last few weeks, we have been discussing how to best move forward with Frenzys.

 

As most know, there were some things going on that weren’t really in the spirit of what we are trying to achieve with competitive pinball.

 

With my SHPC event coming up next week, and 90% of kiwis not having played in one before, it seemed like the ideal time to jot up some guidelines how we at IFPA AUS/NZ would like things run, Frenzy wise.

 

Software is currently being developed to run the format as per these guidelines.

 

So here goes. :)

 

FLIP FRENZY GUIDELINES

 

The Flip Frenzy is a timed tournament. Frenzys are generally run for 3 hours, providing hours of non-stop pinball action.

 

The idea is to play as many games of pinball as possible, and to have the best win/loss record at the end of the competition!

 

First up - each machine is randomly assigned to two players. Players must play a proper competitive 3 (or 5) ball game of pinball to find a winner.

 

When a game is completed:

 

- Both players are to go to the desk to report the result, without any delay. The winner scores a WIN and the loser scores a LOSS.

 

Regardless of the result:

 

- The player who was Player 2 in the game stays at the desk, and goes to the back of the queue to await their next game assignment.

 

- The player who was Player 1 in the game returns to the same machine with the player from the front of the queue. The new player will be PLAYER 1 in the new game, and the returning player is Player 2.

 

- After that game, the process is repeated - results are reported, P2 goes to the rear of the queue, and P1 returns to the same game to play as Player 2 in the new game.

 

Other Rules:

 

- Players who are absent from the queue when their name is called are to be credited with a loss, and placed at the back of the queue.

 

- All Frenzy games must be played in a competitive spirit. Any collusion in results (ie 1 ball games) will result in disqualification from the event.

 

- A player is free to end their ball if they think they have enough points to win, or plunge a ball if they want to concede. However, all balls must be played and the game must be in GAME OVER state when the players leave the game. Turning a machine on/off to end a game is not allowed.

 

- Extra balls at the discretion of the organisers. Options:

1/ play all extra balls

2/ extra balls should be "skillfully plunged" - ie you can line up a skill shot etc, but no attempts to flip the ball are allowed.

 

- At the end of the 3 hours, no more games may start.

 

- Standings are to be based on net wins (i.e. wins - losses = your score) The best score at the end of the competition is the winner.

 

Cheers!

Dave

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I can understand why the final standings rule changed (so it's not just wins, but takes into account losses as well), but what's the reason for changing the queue? To even out the number of games played? This seems to level out the number of games played whether you win or lose?
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I can understand why the final standings rule changed (so it's not just wins, but takes into account losses as well), but what's the reason for changing the queue? To even out the number of games played? This seems to level out the number of games played whether you win or lose?

 

Luke in particular has put a heap of thought into these, so hopefully he will swing by soon and explain the reasoning. :)

 

rd

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Plunging out until game over is an excellent concept

 

I would think that is a problem solver as each player has their own choice

 

2 wins in a row is looked at as an opportunity

 

It is in a way already an opportunity if you come up against a result in favor of 2 on the go...

 

I look forward to comments on this one.....

 

Giddiy Up Pinny Mates.......

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

Hey Master Soap... I am home for pinball?

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I've played in every Netherworld Flip Frenzy! It's been interesting to see & play all of the slight changes in the Format!

 

& I like the idea of everyone getting off the machine after their 2nd Game!

 

Unless you are player 2 of the first game of the Comp! Because you'll leave after that first game!

 

I think it's going to be good because you won't be able to get stuck on the same machine for ages!

 

Like previously you could have a Win & stay on the machine because it was their 2nd loss & if you lose your next game, you'll stay on for another game & then finally off it !

 

It will also be interesting to see if this new rotation of 2 games on & then to back of the queue ! If it gives the players a different selection of machines that they end up playing on during the Comp!

 

Cheers Matt Hetherington :)

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Regardless of the result:

 

- The player who was Player 2 in the game stays at the desk, and goes to the back of the queue to await their next game assignment.

 

- The player who was Player 1 in the game returns to the same machine with the player from the front of the queue. The new player will be PLAYER 1 in the new game, and the returning player is Player 2.

 

- After that game, the process is repeated - results are reported, P2 goes to the rear of the queue, and P1 returns to the same game to play as Player 2 in the new game.

 

This idea will help with the competitive balance of the format, and remove any confusion about who stays on. Everyone gets to play two games on a machine in between stints in the queue.

 

It should also be easier to run; there'll be software available to everyone to automatically manage the queue using this system. TDs are still welcome to run Flip Frenzies using loser-stays-on if they wish.

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This isn't frenzy anymore. The format has changed so much, you should leave it to what it was, and give this new format a new name.

 

Frenzy was special. It's being slowly bastardised into "not-frenzy". This "no double-loss" business takes away from the spirit of frenzy and dilutes its uniqueness.

 

There was a special rush and quick thinking that was applied in frenzies. Was it always fair? Nope. Was it fun? Heck yeah.

 

Keep the original frenzy format, ban 1-ball games, and nerf it. But keep it fun! :)

Edited by Nicolas Noben
removed unecessary jabs
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This isn't frenzy anymore. The format has changed so much, you should leave it to what it was, and give this new format a new name.

 

Frenzy was special. It's being slowly bastardised into "not-frenzy". This "no double-loss" business takes away from the spirit of frenzy and dilutes its uniqueness.

 

There was a special rush and quick thinking that was applied in frenzies. Was it always fair? Nope. Was it fun? Heck yeah.

 

Keep the original frenzy format, ban 1-ball games, and nerf it. But keep it fun! :)

 

 

No reason for people NOT to run tournaments as they want, including 1 ball FF if that is the advertised format. The only issue is that they cannot expect to be IFPA endorsed if they do so. Personally I am all for some tournaments being "for fun only" if it helps generate interest in pinball but you have to play by the rules if you want to be IFPA endorsed and sadly that has been ignored by some participants recently.

Dave

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This isn't frenzy anymore. The format has changed so much, you should leave it to what it was, and give this new format a new name.

 

Frenzy was special. It's being slowly bastardised into "not-frenzy". This "no double-loss" business takes away from the spirit of frenzy and dilutes its uniqueness.

 

There was a special rush and quick thinking that was applied in frenzies. Was it always fair? Nope. Was it fun? Heck yeah.

 

Keep the original frenzy format, ban 1-ball games, and nerf it. But keep it fun! :)

 

I'm glad players are so passionate about this stuff. There'd be no point doing this if people didn't care.

 

For me and others, playing in a competition where cheats prospered was no fun at all.

 

Changes needed to be made to protect the integrity of the IFPA rankings. And, since I coined the name, I say this "new format" is called Flip Frenzy. :P

Edited by LCM
Typo
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This isn't frenzy anymore. The format has changed so much, you should leave it to what it was, and give this new format a new name.

 

Frenzy was special. It's being slowly bastardised into "not-frenzy". This "no double-loss" business takes away from the spirit of frenzy and dilutes its uniqueness.

 

There was a special rush and quick thinking that was applied in frenzies. Was it always fair? Nope. Was it fun? Heck yeah.

 

Keep the original frenzy format, ban 1-ball games, and nerf it. But keep it fun! :)

 

Time for you to play stall ball/strikes format. Wayyyy the best social comp.

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Time for you to play stall ball/strikes format. Wayyyy the best social comp.
Yep. Don't recall another comp where there was so much laughing. Plus some good old fashioned friendly heckling!

 

Sent from my ALP-L29 using Tapatalk

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For me and others, playing in a competition where cheats prospered was no fun at all.

 

 

This had been addressed already. Why change it again?

The winner reporting, no 1 ball and the win/loss ratio counting as the final result were enough to make it IFPA compliant.

 

I don't see why you have to remove the double loss feature on top of that. What does it have to do with cheaters?

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

This idea will help with the competitive balance of the format, and remove any confusion about who stays on. Everyone gets to play two games on a machine in between stints in the queue.

 

It should also be easier to run; there'll be software available to everyone to automatically manage the queue using this system. TDs are still welcome to run Flip Frenzies using loser-stays-on if they wish.

 

There's no confusion when you run the proper software and/or pay a bit of attention to what's going on (you should, you're playing pinball ;-))

Re the option to run the "old" format, is it still IFPA approved if you do so?

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Once you play stall ball you won't worry about playing flip frenzies again... Lol wait till U play one then worry bout asking questions later

 

That makes little sense to me. It's like saying "You won't worry about Thai food ever again once you've had Indian!"

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Yeah pretty much ;) ok well given there is a limited amount of time to play "social/fun" events I am sure that you will not think to play flip frenzies once you have played stall ball.

 

Note to self: try not to be humourous over the internet...

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Yeah pretty much ;) ok well given there is a limited amount of time to play "social/fun" events I am sure that you will not think to play flip frenzies once you have played stall ball.

 

Note to self: try not to be humourous over the internet...

or to guys north of the border lol

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Re the option to run the "old" format, is it still IFPA approved if you do so?

 

Yes, it is. With full WPPRs.

 

There's no confusion when you run the proper software and/or pay a bit of attention to what's going on (you should, you're playing pinball ;-))

 

Other TDs don't have access to the excellent Netherworld Flip Frenzy software, and not all players pay attention. When running it manually, there was scope for players to stay on when they weren't supposed to. The simplified rule addresses this exploit, and - in my opinion - generally makes things fairer.

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Stall ball was by far the most fun I've had in a tournament, FF are great also but the heckling in SB just added another dimension of fun, calling drains and then the player draining as it was called was lots of fun, putting RGR on a double tilt warning then saying the outlane posts were taken out to make him look and lose concentration was gold! As long as it doesn't get personal it's a great way of getting everyone involved and laughing like l haven't heard at a comp.

 

Sent from my SM-G960F using Aussie Arcade mobile app

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Ok, I'm not ready to let this go yet, because people are missing the point.

 

Luke, from reading your response, I'm not sure you fully understood the beauty of your own format.

 

I think people need to come down from their high ranking ladder for a minute; and they need to understand the format for who it worked well: the new players.

 

The frenzy was special. It was the holy grail of new pinball players. Many of the new pinball players in QLD were introduced into competitive pinball via the flip frenzies. Some, would only play in that format.

 

3 hours of pinball non stop. Huge adrenaline. But it was all positive. Losses didn't count, so they didn't worry about losing. There is no negative reinforcement here. It's all about chasing wins. They didn't feel bad about a loss, and they didn't count their Win/Loss ratio or even thought about it. Sometimes, losing was encouraged and it was the right thing to do! That was a VERY UNIQUE feature in any kind of sport/hobby - the strategic loss - because TIME was the worst enemy, not your losses.

 

It was a FRENZY.

 

And the first-loss "loser stay on" rule, double-loss "back to the queue", is something thick baboons can't seem to get through their heads; but it had a very genius effect on the game, particularly when losses didn't count. It was like getting right back up, after being knocked down, with a second chance. Like a free life: brush off that loss, and get right back into it, on the same machine, as player 1.

 

The double-loss kick in the guts was also a stroke of genius, it really hurt. But that was fair, because you're now warm on that machine and so you had an advantage. So you make no progress towards your win count and you're chucked at the back of the queue, losing more time.

 

The double-win "stay on" caused by giving someone his second-loss added a bit to the randomness of the game, and that was a GREAT thing. Why? Why is randomness good? Why shouldn't every format of pinball absolutely remove every element of luck? Because this is the only tournament format where no one could predict the top 10. That made it SPECIAL. It was the only format where an average player had a remote chance of ending up higher on the ladder than a well ranked player. And that's a GREAT thing! Because you could see it in their eyes, at that point, that new player was HOOKED on competitive pinball. They'd be back.

 

When tournament results are predictable, and it's always the same top 8, and always the same top 4 and always the same top 2, the "little" people lose interest. I'd suspect that's why some states don't have the same retention of new players than QLD has. We make new players not only feel welcome, we teach them everything we know, and they got chances to rank really well, occasionally, in a very silly format. Even if it wasn't fully their doing and they got lucky - they know it - but they'll get the applause, the huge cheers, and there is nothing more addicting than a big win. It's a format where the music is pumping, on purpose. It never changed the Top 20 of Australia! But its only downfall was that it was worth too many points, which invited cheating, and therefor it was only a matter of time until it got put down.

 

Now, it really saddens me that you mention cheating as a reason for these changes (c.f. "in a competition where cheats prospered"). Changing the rules about the scoring and queuing has no tangible effect against cheating.

 

The changes needed to prevent the "1-ball collusion" was to make it clear about disqualification and add more staff to monitoring. And that was applied. And the only change needed to prevent the "double-loss exploit", is to have only the winner report, never the loser. And it was also applied swiftly.

 

The changes in scoring and queuing have nothing to do with dampening "a competition where cheats prospered" (and what a thing to say!)

 

The changes made in the reporting affects the fairness in the ranking of the tournament, for the better, but I would direct you back to the points I made above, as to why predictable ranking is not the niche that the frenzy was, albeit unexpectedly, targetting.

 

Changing the P1/P2 business and removing the first-loss, double-loss and double-wins flattens the ladder back to the better players, further diluting the uniqueness of the format; but really it's already been butchered since TIME is not the worst enemy anymore.

 

Now as to address the typical complaint of "frenzy being too physical", I've had my fair share of elephants run into me... But I would attribute it to drunks more than anything (and idiots). And alcohol in pinball is a very different topic, which shouldn't push down on an exciting format. All the frenzies I played in QLD were well managed and players are respectful of each other, instantly apologizing if a mishap happened.

 

Sadly, these changes to the format make it slower, more predictable, and fairer for sure. I rank better at it now, on average. But that's completely missing the point of the FRENZY. It's not exciting anymore, hence why I invite people to find it a new name and leave the "frenzy name" for what it was, a unique competition where anything could happen.

 

I feel people didn't really graps the power of the frenzy on the community at large...

 

Keeping the original format and nerfing its WPPR was the right move in my book.

 

Now, this watered down version of "frenzy" (?): I'd call it "your dad's frenzy", at best.

 

Thanks for reading.

Edited by Nicolas Noben
typo
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I now have a total headspin after Nic's Novel...

 

Most points make sense but I cannot understand how an average can be determined as to the top players moving back to the top of the leaderboard in flips again due to the fact an average takes a few events to happen to gauge a result. It has only been a short time since the Brisbane Masters had the Flip event from which these changes have evolved. It is far too early to make this call in my opinion.

 

For me the changes need time to get a gauge on the longer term results to get an average and to get the full scope of how things pan out.

 

My last 2 frenzies have had me from outside the top 120 in Australia finish in a 3 way tie for second, Our young Junior star Emily Cossin winning her first event flip style and qualifying for the Qld Championships in a few short weeks. WELL DONE EMILY...

 

As for this not going to like Flip once I have laughed my guts out playing the format mentioned... It would need to be good as flip is really enjoyable in the old and new format.

 

What I need to know is when will we play this format in Brisbane so an educated choice can be made. No way of having an opinion without having a go.

 

As with the changes to the Pincadia strikes competition. All seems fairer with this format giving lower ranked players more satisfaction all round.

 

As with any sport, changes are inevitable... What about V8's supercars, Long handles broom stick putters and pajamas on the field. It's just not cricket.

 

And finally as a player of some 12-14 months there is plenty of help for newbies and all new players are welcomed at all venues and the return rate is extremely high. I would however note that it is not just high ranked players that need to remember what it is like to be a new player on the scene, but also the many players that might have a large amount of pinball experience but forget how hard it can be to introduce yourself to a new bunch of people in a new environment. Just like starting at a new job or school or playing your first game of NRL beside a 300 gamer.

 

I still learn a new ruling etc at almost every comp I attend thus it is good to remember the hole thing is a learning experience and should be based on fun. That is the most important thing about pinball for me.

 

Play the game and have Fun...Lots of it...

 

Now plunge the ball....

 

Lets Go.....

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Ok, I'm not ready to let this go yet, because people are missing the point.

 

Luke, from reading your response, I'm not sure you fully understood the beauty of your own format.

 

I think people need to come down from their high ranking ladder for a minute; and they need to understand the format for who it worked well: the new players.

 

The frenzy was special. It was the holy grail of new pinball players. Many of the new pinball players in QLD were introduced into competitive pinball via the flip frenzies. Some, would only play in that format.

 

3 hours of pinball non stop. Huge adrenaline. But it was all positive. Losses didn't count, so they didn't worry about losing. There is no negative reinforcement here. It's all about chasing wins. They didn't feel bad about a loss, and they didn't count their Win/Loss ratio or even thought about it. Sometimes, losing was encouraged and it was the right thing to do! That was a VERY UNIQUE feature in any kind of sport/hobby - the strategic loss - because TIME was the worst enemy, not your losses.

 

It was a FRENZY.

 

And the first-loss "loser stay on" rule, double-loss "back to the queue", is something thick baboons can't seem to get through their heads; but it had a very genius effect on the game, particularly when losses didn't count. It was like getting right back up, after being knocked down, with a second chance. Like a free life: brush off that loss, and get right back into it, on the same machine, as player 1.

 

The double-loss kick in the guts was also a stroke of genius, it really hurt. But that was fair, because you're now warm on that machine and so you had an advantage. So you make no progress towards your win count and you're chucked at the back of the queue, losing more time.

 

The double-win "stay on" caused by giving someone his second-loss added a bit to the randomness of the game, and that was a GREAT thing. Why? Why is randomness good? Why shouldn't every format of pinball absolutely remove every element of luck? Because this is the only tournament format where no one could predict the top 10. That made it SPECIAL. It was the only format where an average player had a remote chance of ending up higher on the ladder than a well ranked player. And that's a GREAT thing! Because you could see it in their eyes, at that point, that new player was HOOKED on competitive pinball. They'd be back.

 

When tournament results are predictable, and it's always the same top 8, and always the same top 4 and always the same top 2, the "little" people lose interest. I'd suspect that's why some states don't have the same retention of new players than QLD has. We make new players not only feel welcome, we teach them everything we know, and they got chances to rank really well, occasionally, in a very silly format. Even if it wasn't fully their doing and they got lucky - they know it - but they'll get the applause, the huge cheers, and there is nothing more addicting than a big win. It's a format where the music is pumping, on purpose. It never changed the Top 20 of Australia! But its only downfall was that it was worth too many points, which invited cheating, and therefor it was only a matter of time until it got put down.

 

Now, it really saddens me that you mention cheating as a reason for these changes (c.f. "in a competition where cheats prospered"). Changing the rules about the scoring and queuing has no tangible effect against cheating.

 

The changes needed to prevent the "1-ball collusion" was to make it clear about disqualification and add more staff to monitoring. And that was applied. And the only change needed to prevent the "double-loss exploit", is to have only the winner report, never the loser. And it was also applied swiftly.

 

The changes in scoring and queuing have nothing to do with dampening "a competition where cheats prospered" (and what a thing to say!)

 

The changes made in the reporting affects the fairness in the ranking of the tournament, for the better, but I would direct you back to the points I made above, as to why predictable ranking is not the niche that the frenzy was, albeit unexpectedly, targetting.

 

Changing the P1/P2 business and removing the first-loss, double-loss and double-wins flattens the ladder back to the better players, further diluting the uniqueness of the format; but really it's already been butchered since TIME is not the worst enemy anymore.

 

Now as to address the typical complaint of "frenzy being too physical", I've had my fair share of elephants run into me... But I would attribute it to drunks more than anything (and idiots). And alcohol in pinball is a very different topic, which shouldn't push down on an exciting format. All the frenzies I played in QLD were well managed and players are respectful of each other, instantly apologizing if a mishap happened.

 

Sadly, these changes to the format make it slower, more predictable, and fairer for sure. I rank better at it now, on average. But that's completely missing the point of the FRENZY. It's not exciting anymore, hence why I invite people to find it a new name and leave the "frenzy name" for what it was, a unique competition where anything could happen.

 

I feel people didn't really graps the power of the frenzy on the community at large...

 

Keeping the original format and nerfing its WPPR was the right move in my book.

 

Now, this watered down version of "frenzy" (?): I'd call it "your dad's frenzy", at best.

 

Thanks for reading.

 

I really think you need to let it go.

 

If YOU want that format to stay as you liked it, put on and run a tournament.

 

In that format it was rife with cheating, being stuck in long playing games, sometimes 3 games on a long player.

 

How is it fair if someone wins 16 - 0 , no losses, where someone can play 42 games over the same amount of time.

Too much luck of the draw.

 

How can a few slight changes to even things out be bad when now losses count.

If you don’t like losses , play better. If you are new player and wanting to have fun, then it’s still a Frenzy.

You still need to have wins, everyone gets to have a Frenzy for 3hrs and you don’t get stuck on the same machine, 2 games then off is good.

 

 

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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Too much luck of the draw....

 

It is as it is when random is involved....

 

I had 5 groups of 3 player games in strike on Monday night....Had to win second wouldn't cut it....

 

30 plus players and I had all 3 player groups, Probably the only one there that copped that draw on monday

 

Random, painful, but random

 

Lost and had to suck it up either way.

 

Thats just pinball

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In that format it was rife with cheating, being stuck in long playing games, sometimes 3 games on a long player.

 

Like you said, play better and get 2 wins in a row after you took out the other player that was on his second loss if you don't want to play a 3rd game :-)

 

How is it fair if someone wins 16 - 0 , no losses, where someone can play 42 games over the same amount of time.

Too much luck of the draw.

 

Because quick wins are part of the strategy in this format. They still are with the new win/loss ratio btw.

Also, looking at the statistics, the players playing the highest number of games usually have the highest number of losses too, so the impact of being able to play more games is irrelevant, it's more how you manage to get more wins.

Edited by capsule
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