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Flip Frenzy Scoring/calculation idea


robm

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If you are silly enough to choose a long playing game in a FF tournament then you only have yourself to blame if you don't get enough games in to win. FF strategy should be tied to game choice IMO, not throwing the game to artificially inflate the number of rounds played.

 

Dave

 

Agree with what you are saying Dave, but players have no choice with game selection in Flip Frenzy, the software or last game played determines the next game. Which is really why there are questions aroudn the format - a very skilled player can play perfectly and win 100% of games, however if they are unlucky enough to draw all long playing games (POTC comes to mind at Brisbane Masters), then someone else will likely win the tournament. Hence my idea of this thread to discuss ways that could take away the 'luck' factor in drawing games and somehow bring it back to a normlaised figure, regardless of the total games played by a particular individual.

 

The issue of a player hiding in the dunny or leaving if they have a perfect run is really easy as other have said - if you aren't there when your name is called, you get an automatic loss.

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If you are silly enough to choose a long playing game in a FF tournament then you only have yourself to blame if you don't get enough games in to win.

 

Except you don't choose what game you'll play in a Frenzy :-)

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If you are going to quote me at least give me credit. Maybe I should get a Tshirt made up with that on it.

 

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Sorry Russell, just didn't want to drop you in the crap any more than you usually are :lol

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Agree with what you are saying Dave, but players have no choice with game selection in Flip Frenzy, the software or last game played determines the next game.

 

Yes, of course it does Rob, my mistake. Format aside, I stand by my comments re tanking games all the same.

Dave

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You are saying that the luck of the draw can be more important than the skill of the player, but then go on to say that frenzies are a harvesting fest for better players. So which is it? Luck or skill? Couldn't you then say that all tournaments are just point harvesting fests for better players?

 

I hear you. On average, over many frenzies, the better players will come out on top, just as they do for any other format. But, given the large luck factor and how (relatively) easy it is to win a flip frenzy as opposed to a matchplay tournament, I think the frenzies are worth too much.

 

My preferred option for dealing with the frenzies is to make them worth far fewer WPPRs. Dividing by 3 seems reasonable to me. That would greatly reduce the incentive to cheat. In addition, add some form of penalty into the scoring for lost games, so there is an incentive to finish games instead of just conceding them.

 

The frenzy format is really, really fun, and a great way to get new players involved in competitive pinball. By making them worth less, it's more likely that people will attend for fun, instead of attending for points.

Michi.

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To say Luke Marburg and I are disappointed in what has been occurring in some Flip Frenzy tournaments is an understatement. I've been hearing rumours of certain practises in some events for some time now but nothing official. Luke and I will act when something has been escalated to us due to no action by the Tournament Director or where the player has felt the Tournament Director has not acted appropriately.

 

For players to decide what is acceptable practise and what is not, is unbelievable. If it isn't stated in the rules, so everyone has the same chance, then basically it is cheating. To collude with an opponent on an outcome of a game is cheating. To not report it, is complicit and, in my view, just as bad because you could have put a stop to the behaviour but chose not to do so.

 

When tournaments are run, most players would believe that their fellow competitors would play within the rules. There is that perception that most players are honest when competing and the Tournament Directors will act if and when required.

 

Most of the high ranked players will always ensure they know the rules of the format so they can play within those boundaries. If they want to interpret a rule a certain way, then it would be a good idea to make sure that the rule does mean that and all other competitors have the same advantage or disadvantage, depending on what it is.

 

It is up to the Tournament Director to enforce those rules and supervise the event properly at all times. If they are busy competing, then they should ensure there are other officials to assist, otherwise don't include yourself as the TD.

 

If you have an unfair advantage against your opponent or the rest of the participants, then it can be seen as cheating because your opponents don't have the same chance. Once labelled a cheat, it is very hard to lose that label. For the sake of what might look like a great idea at the time on how to beat other players, it can now ruin a persons reputation forever or a very long time. It also brings the format and pinball into disrepute.

 

Since resurrecting competitive pinball in Australia, a number of years ago now, I've watched it grow immensely into what it is today thanks to the hard work of many players here. When Luke Marburg introduced the Flip Frenzy format here in Australia, we and Norbert Snicer saw what an awesome format it was to introduce new players to competitive pinball because it allowed those new players the ability to compete and stay in the event throughout the duration of the tournament regardless of how many wins or losses they had. They could not get knocked out during the tournament. It is a fun and interactive format if players choose to play that way.

 

It is a format that does have a place in the IFPA, though the rules need a little refining and we would love to see it stay but the behaviour of some players has to be stamped out.

 

One of my first major events I ran was the Australian Pinball Expo Championship at the Australian Pinball Expo. It was the first time I saw what cheating can do to a tournament if not seen or dealt with immediately and appropriately. I was watching a young guy and his girlfriend competing in the tournament and they were doing well. They were having a great time. I later noticed that things had changed and went up to them and asked what was wrong? They didn't want to say anything, because they didn't want to "dob" anyone in, but I managed to convince them to tell me. My main concern was that they have a great experience at the expo and the tournament. They eventually told me they had noticed cheating occurring by other players in the tournament. I was shocked to hear this and assured them that it would be dealt with. The players were caught cheating and immediately ejected from the tournament. I was disappointed that players would try such things. However, it was a wake up call that it can occur and to always act fast appropriately. The two players noticed that the organisers of the event were serious and now confident once again that the event was being run honestly and continued to compete in the event for many more hours as it was a pump and dump event.

 

One last point, not all Flip Frenzy tournaments I have attended or heard about, has colluding or cheating been occurring, however, it seems it has started to become somewhat accepted in some "circles" as a strategy. Luke is sending out new guidelines to all TD's reminding them of their duty and the rules which they will explain to all participants before the commencement of each event on how the Flip Frenzy format should be played.

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Flip Frenzy Scoring/calculation idea

 

There’s nothing more sociable and enjoyable than Group Matchplay. All of my favourite tournament experiences have come from this format (local and interstate). You actually get to know people because you have an opportunity to chat in between balls/ rounds as the pace isn’t frenetic. There’s a reason why everyone talks about Pinburgh being so enjoyable (not that I’ve been!).

 

Flip frenzies started off fun and a bit like a party but they’ve been polluted by all the crap that necessitates the existence of a thread like this (you don’t see anyone debating the merits, scoring formulae and varieties of cheating with other formats).

 

These days, Flip Frenzies literally give me a headache after 2 hours , I feel constantly rushed and unable to engage with anyone amid the repetitive, and at times mildly aggressive ,mantra of “c’mon mate, a quick game’s a good game”. It’s just not pinball. And the 1ball BS just takes it to another (far lower) level.

 

Make flip frenzies worth less points (1/3 at least) and they will become fun again.

It’s the only way. People are just too points- focused - especially when you can earn as many in 3 hours of T-20 style pin as you can in the Test match equivalent of group matchplay and finals!

 

Competitive pinball is amazing and addictive. Dan , Luke and all the TDs are clearly passionate and do a great job. It just needs a little weeding - and let’s start with the Frenzies

 

George (Adelaide)

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At the Feddy Flip Frenzy after about 2 hours people started dropping out like flies... we had removed 2 arenas by the end. That FF was 3 hours which was half hour less than all the others I had been in. Bowland FF is planned for 2 hours at this stage as a short close to the weekend, partly because of this, but also to allow enough time for the main event finals to conclude. This also gives players from afar that bit more time to make their way home since it will finish an hour earlier than it would with a 3hour event..

 

The way I understand it this shorter running time will also reduce the TGP for the FF quite a bit. The other events should all be fairly high TGP.

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I had a player say "come on, let's get going, a fast game is........". SO, I took my full two minutes, wiped down the machine with my hoodie sleeve aka Zach Sharpe, had a sip of water aka Josh Sharpe and proceeded to play laboriously slowly, trapping up at every opportunity. I made my point.

 

Love it LOL...I'm going to try that next time someone says that to me...not that I play alot of Frenzies.

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It strikes me that unless you have banks that have been timed etc, you're always going to have longer playing and shorter playing games (and even with timed banks games will take variable amounts of time).

 

It's just the nature of the beast.

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Love it LOL...I'm going to try that next time someone says that to me...not that I play alot of Frenzies.

 

Snap.

I was going to comment on the exact same excerpt!

Man, I sooooo wish I had seen him do that.

 

The vibe I’m getting with all these posts: we all seem to enjoy competing - to varying degrees and with different levels of intensity- but we all(well, most of us) want to bring FUN back onto the top of our list of priorities.

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but we all(well, most of us) want to bring FUN back onto the top of our list of priorities.

 

One of the reasons I stopped competing, wasn’t fun anymore.

There was another major reason but won’t go into that.

 

Started to play flip frenzy and enjoyed playing again, but alas, it was short lived so stopped again.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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Now I have taken the time to read all the previous threads I will add my 20 cents worth.... That's right 20 cents, the price pinball used to be for some of us oldies...

Having been at the Brisvegas Masters I was unfortunately out of the room when most of the discussions where occurring regarding the Concerns raised in these forums.

The F/F discussions have been hard and fast behind the scenes regarding this. These posts are very beneficial to all players as with myself having played for about 18 months have discovered some many varied formats of pinball and all of them have their quirks and perks. The blatant Cheating in F/F events definitely must be addressed and yes the best time is during the season change to keep things fair for a full term. This is also the time to have your say. Don't complain about the outcome if you have no input.

I have never been asked to play a 1 ball game. I do know people that have been asked. Those people had better not ask me. A slow game is definitely on the cards. It would be worth the entry fee just to annoy the culprits. You know who you are and your mates if that is the right term know who you are too. You are the type of person who would cheat on your golf handicap too. Kick a ball out of the rough and never have a score over 5.

I have enjoyed my pinball but will happily show the unusual results of some players visible on the IFPA website for all to see.

It also is very visible that the culprits started this approximately the middle of 2017. It shows dramatically in their results on the IFPA site.

On another note I enjoy F/F as a format and don't care about the points as much as some but they do in my opinion need to have a lessor weighting for what they are.

As I am new to pinball and all it's varied rule bases I can only comment on my experience. I do however like the social side as much as anything as we are such a diverse crowd that you probably would not have a beer together under normal circumstances.

And finally thanks to all those behind the scenes that make pinball great.

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Suspect I'm in the minority here, but I dislike Flip Frenzies as a COMPETITION structure for many of the reasons outlined in this thread. Having said that, I do think it can be fun to play a lot of games, meet new people, and, in the context of a big tourney weekend of pinball, get some exposure to the machines that I'll be on for the next few days. Personally I feel they are basically a luck fest, which can be enjoyable, but for me, often enough, isn`t that much fun. I'd rather play timed games head to head(not sanctioned under IFPA rules). Short game times, lots of exposure to various machines and meet the peoples, whole event length can be tightly controlled.

 

And I get to get on the flail, flailing is fun.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

Amongst the worse things I have reported last year in Adelaide:

- best game; player using the restart function after having a bad first ball (I believe another player reported the same player for the same thing after that tourney).

- flip frenzy; player kneeing the coin door and slam titling the machine after the first ball (made worse by the fact that he said before the game "this is not set up correctly, so I'm going to slam tilt it").

 

It is for these situations, plus other general bad behaviour, not to mention myself starting to swear regularly, as to why I have only played in 6 tourneys this year (compared to 37 by this point last year).

.

 

Bloody ell. Really?! (Of course I believe you Andrew). I just find this basically incomprehensible. It's pinball, get something that means something to care about. FFS.

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Agree with what you are saying Dave, but players have no choice with game selection in Flip Frenzy, the software or last game played determines the next game. Which is really why there are questions aroudn the format - a very skilled player can play perfectly and win 100% of games, however if they are unlucky enough to draw all long playing games (POTC comes to mind at Brisbane Masters), then someone else will likely win the tournament. Hence my idea of this thread to discuss ways that could take away the 'luck' factor in drawing games and somehow bring it back to a normlaised figure, regardless of the total games played by a particular individual.

 

The issue of a player hiding in the dunny or leaving if they have a perfect run is really easy as other have said - if you aren't there when your name is called, you get an automatic loss.

 

What if players could Choose to "not play" and go to rear of queue with an automatic loss... this would allow a way for them to "opt out" of playing a particular game they have "drawn" which they see as a "long player" .... especially if they have just played it several times in a row already and just want to play something else. Just a thought.

 

At the Feddy I recall someone (don't remember whom) just kept getting Baywatch time after time just by pure coincidence. I started to feel sorry for them the way their fate was unfolding Lol ... in this example the player could have opted out and gone to the back of the queue, which I'm pretty sure they would have done after the fourth time they were up on that game, if it were a clearly stated option ...

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What if players could Choose to "not play" and go to rear of queue with an automatic loss... this would allow a way for them to "opt out" of playing a particular game they have "drawn" which they see as a "long player" .... especially if they have just played it several times in a row already and just want to play something else. Just a thought.

 

That's what happens now with the new rules.

Before, I would have called that cheating as you could decide not to face a certain opponent, rather than a specific game, and go back to a very short queue, to avoid an almost certain loss.

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That's what happens now with the new rules.

Before, I would have called that cheating as you could decide not to face a certain opponent, rather than a specific game, and go back to a very short queue, to avoid an almost certain loss.

 

That’s worse than 1 ball games.

 

Oh I don’t like this game, too long, back to the que.

 

This is why rules need to change to stop the number of games played and potential wins being chased so vigorously.

 

I hope a formula gets worked out as I love the format (as a fun non points format).

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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That’s worse than 1 ball games.

 

Oh I don’t like this game, too long, back to the que.

 

This is why rules need to change to stop the number of games played and potential wins being chased so vigorously.

 

I hope a formula gets worked out as I love the format (as a fun non points format).

 

A new formula has already been enforced by the IFPA during the Netherworld Flip Frenzy last Saturday.

 

Each loss is considered -1 and a "net total" is calculated, to reward consistent play.

That means a player with 15 wins and 5 losses will beat another with 16 wins and 7 losses.

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