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Firepower driver board blowing tip102


madal

Question

Having a problem with Firepower, started with bottom right pop-bumper now it's moved up and blown Q8,Q4,Q6 all 4A SB

as I be working on the board anyway, I will be replacing old parts for new

40pin look good,

Have just replaced the all 12, 9 pins on the board.

Replaced R196 thru R203 and R204 thru R211 with Zero ohm.

I will be replacing the 8 tip 42 with IRF9Z34NPBF that are on order as well as replacing the 5w with the Zero ohm

The readings I was getting from around the Q6 - Q4- Q8 . were out of spec and some parts where burnt.

so far have replaced

Q6 - Q4- Q8 for tip122

Q5-Q3-Q7. for 2N4401TA

R14-R11-R17. FOR 0.5W Metal Film 68R 1%,

R13-R10-R16. FOR 0.5W MTL 560R 1%,

R15-R12-R16. FOR 0.5W MTL 2K7 1%,

IC 6-7 7408 with SN74HC08N

IC 8-9 7402 with SN74ls02

new reading DIMM set to Diode check

2.7k ohm r9 834, r21 846, r24 838, r15 831, r12 728, r18 847.

560 ohm r7 540, r19 557, r22 549, r13 549, r10 551, r16 551.

68 ohm r8 70, r20 70, r23 70, r14 70, r11 70, r17 70.

2N4401 C Q1 615, Q9 625, Q11 617, Q5 618, Q3 620, Q7 620, useung red on C and black b.

2N4401 E Q1 1858, Q9 1872, Q11 1866, Q5 1853, Q3 1765, Q7 1871, red on E and black b.

tip 122 E Q2 495, Q10 495, Q12 494, Q6 495, Q4 539, Q8 432, red on E and black C.

tip 122 E Q2 626, Q10 626, Q12 627, Q6 626, Q4 675, Q8 627, red on B and black C.

reading from Q4 (E), Q3, R12,and Q8 (E) are still out !. dont know where to go from here ?

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Looks like a row of four transistors all being locked on.

 

I'm thinking the chip driving the PIA or the PIA itself has a fault.

 

PIA is one of the large chips on the driver board. One soley controls the transistors.

Thanks for your help.

IC5 PIA where would I get one of those?

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Thanks for your help.

IC5 PIA where would I get one of those?

 

You probably want to look at the 7404's or 7408's first.

Without looking at the schematics I can't quite remember which it is.

Trace back the blown TIP120's back to a common IC, these do go from time to time and cause exactly what you are experiencing, normally heaps of burnt coils.

If you're installing LEDS then no need to replace the TIP42's the load on them will be a lot less.

I assume you mean 27ohm 5W resistors not zero ohm in place of the 25ohm 2W resistors.

All the parts are available at Jaycar for a quick repair

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Thanks for your help.

IC5 PIA where would I get one of those?

 

Radio Spares, Element 14 or EBay. They are not hard to get..

 

Check if the chip is in a socket, some are, that it doesn't just require a reseat.

 

I could also be the chip driving or decoding the signals to or from the 6821.

 

If the chips are on sockets a good approach is to swap over two 6821s on your machine and see if the problem travels to the lights or displays and the coils work correctly.

 

If the problem moves, you know now the 6821 is at fault.

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You probably want to look at the 7404's or 7408's first.

Without looking at the schematics I can't quite remember which it is.

Trace back the blown TIP120's back to a common IC, these do go from time to time and cause exactly what you are experiencing, normally heaps of burnt coils.

If you're installing LEDS then no need to replace the TIP42's the load on them will be a lot less.

I assume you mean 27ohm 5W resistors not zero ohm in place of the 25ohm 2W resistors.

All the parts are available at Jaycar for a quick repair

You mean IC 7402 and 7408 there no 7404 that I can see? There been replaced 6-7 7408 with SN74HC08N, IC 8-9 7402 with SN74ls02

I do plan on useing leds on a later date but I have already made a order for the IRF9Z34NPBF and yes its 5w 27ohm i be replacing with zero ohm

Edited by madal
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You mean IC 7402 and 7408 there no 7404 that I can see? There been replaced 6-7 7408 with SN74HC08N, IC 8-9 7402 with SN74ls02

I do plan on useing leds on a later date but I have already made a oder for the IRF9Z34NPBF and yes its 5w 27ohm i be replacing with zero ohm

 

You may enjoy a read through this......

 

https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/vids-guide-to-bulletproofing-williams-system-6/page/2

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You mean IC 7402 and 7408 there no 7404 that I can see? There been replaced 6-7 7408 with SN74HC08N, IC 8-9 7402 with SN74ls02

I do plan on useing leds on a later date but I have already made a order for the IRF9Z34NPBF and yes its 5w 27ohm i be replacing with zero ohm

 

Yeah couldn't quite remember off the top off my head 7402 and 7408 sounds right

Normally you would replace with 74ls02 or 74ls08

If these have been replace previously then were they socketed?

That would make them easy to replace if faulty

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Had to wait to get 2.5A SB fuses in.last one was blown.

@Skybeaux thanks for the heads up on the IC pick up some SN74LS08N

Radio Spares, Element 14 or EBay. They are not hard to get..

 

Check if the chip is in a socket, some are, that it doesn't just require a reseat.

 

I could also be the chip driving or decoding the signals to or from the 6821.

 

If the chips are on sockets a good approach is to swap over two 6821s on your machine and see if the problem travels to the lights or displays and the coils work correctly.

 

If the problem moves, you know now the 6821 is at fault.

Been lucky most of the chips have sockets. Have removed and reseat them,

swap over the 6821s still the same problem. Can count out the 6821!

@Boots it was not locking the coils on. The coils stop working then had blown tip102 then 2-4ASb and a 2.5ASb.

believe the IC 6 to 9 are the only ones on the special solenoids as there now replaced.

Can run the game with the bottom two pop bumpers dewired.

If I wire them back in there go's a 2.5A fuse. Fuse is doing a good job.

If was not for the electronic components out of spec. I would think wireing problem....

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Had to wait to get 2.5A SB fuses in.last one was blown.

@Skybeaux thanks for the heads up on the IC pick up some SN74LS08N

 

Been lucky most of the chips have sockets. Have removed and reseat them,

swap over the 6821s still the same problem. Can count out the 6821!

@Boots it was not locking the coils on. The coils stop working then had blown tip102 then 2-4ASb and a 2.5ASb.

believe the IC 6 to 9 are the only ones on the special solenoids as there now replaced.

Can run the game with the bottom two pop bumpers dewired.

If I wire them back in there go's a 2.5A fuse. Fuse is doing a good job.

If was not for the electronic components out of spec. I would think wireing problem....

Sounds like the coils or diodes are stuffed

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I offered to help Al fix this so he dropped it over to my place 2 weeks ago and what a F*in nightmare, but simple when you know what's going on :o

I am pretty confident it is now fixed as it has been running for hours on the last three days and working fine.

Al brought over two driver boards and mpu's, one mpu was fine on the bench but the other needed new roms and I upgraded to a FPCombo rom and modified his board, the first one has some weird hack that wires up a piggybacked 2716 that I am not touching :o but it works ok.

Both driver boards had their problems, both needing several chips, mainly PIAs.

I fixed both boards and had them running on the bench ok but the first one installed, after several games blew Pia ic11 pin 13 locked on. I took it off and put the other one in, it worked for a while while I fixed the first, then I put the first one back in and after a couple of games it blew the Pia again.

To me this indicated a problem with that particular board :o, not the case.....

Al brought a third board over and I fixed it and fitted it, sure enough the Pia blew, dammit it had to be a playfield problem but why did nothing happen to the second board.....pure luck.....

Over the period of testing I was getting all sorts of weird faults, lamp rows locking on, flippers working with no credits, random dead transistors but nothing consistent except the dead Pia at ic11, sometimes pin 13, 12, 11, sometimes a random IC 2, 8, 1, 17,18 other PIAs seemed to be holding their own, although randomly the chips off the Pia outputs would die.

Once the second board died in a similar way I had a better clue, although I had looked quite carefully under the playfield previously nothing stood out. I pulled the playfield out and flipped it over on a table and then went to town with the multimeter. I tested all switches on all the switch matrix to earth and to rows and to any earth.

After about two hours I got a beep when I actuated one of the pop bumpers from solenoid to frame.

Finally, something showed,

The top winding of the pop bumper coil had come away and expanded out to just touch the pop bumper support frame. This didn't create a direct short in most cases but intermittently would short through the pop mechanism and shove 28v down the switch matrix, bast*rd :realmad:

I actually found a second coil with the same issue after a bit of digging, this is why there was so much weird shiz going on.

I have since fixed both driver boards again and been tested for days fully working.

The weird thing is the randomness of the faults, from blowing one transistor to blowing several at the same time.

 

The reason for me adding to this post is that someone else with really weird faults may find this helpful.

I have blown about 6 PIAs and numerous 7402,7406, 7408 tip122, 2n4401 etc struggling to get a real handle on what is happening.

Finally Firepower is doing as it should :D, can't wait to get it the hell out of here and never see it again :D

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Awesome work there Ray.

 

Been a Pinball I was told has work with out real problems for 3 years.

To have a board blow chips again and again would make anyone go Mad.

And to think it was coil winding on first and second looks to be ok.

Go's to show how Awesome you are with electronic mate.:D

With my skill set I may of never understood that the coil was problem ever.

Beers coming ta way.

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The top winding of the pop bumper coil had come away and expanded out to just touch the pop bumper support frame. This didn't create a direct short in most cases but intermittently would short through the pop mechanism and shove 28v down the switch matrix, bast*rd :realmad:

I actually found a second coil with the same issue after a bit of digging, this is why there was so much weird shiz going on.

 

Nice find. Usually it is the GI bare wire they ground to. It sounds like the bakalite D plate was damaged on the popbumper as well to allow the "powered" bracket to short to the matrix.

 

The bakalite "should be the only thing the switch would come in contact with.

 

It is not unusually for some people to have the D plate push the contacts together, ( like a Gottlieb), rather than the switch naturally coming together when the D ring moves out of the way when the coil is activated.

 

In other words, the switch's longest blade should be sitting on the D plate side closest to the coil and not under the D plate closest to the playfield.

 

Maybe the switch is out of adjustment allowing it to contact the metal of the D ring or the bumper ring metal, who knows.

 

This problem is so similar to a World Cup 94 I have just done I wrote about in the Dedshed thread.

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Thanks Ray for the input as I'm having a frustrating time with my firepower.

 

It plays all ok but when you get all 3 balls locked, countdown begins, balls released and then during multiball it resets with no reason. gives me the shits as it doesn't do it all the time but more so if you loose a ball SDTM.

 

I hate intermittent faults and have done for years, especially when I was in the car repair game.

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Thanks Ray for the input as I'm having a frustrating time with my firepower.

 

It plays all ok but when you get all 3 balls locked, countdown begins, balls released and then during multiball it resets with no reason. gives me the shits as it doesn't do it all the time but more so if you loose a ball SDTM.

 

I hate intermittent faults and have done for years, especially when I was in the car repair game.

 

That sounds like the very common FirePower and lately Williams problems. One of the 4 flipper coil diodes is blown. It intermittently happens when both flippers are hit at the same time which happens a lot during multiball play.

 

They seem to handle a diode blown when only one flipper is hit but cause a reset when both are hit.

 

You may be lucky and this is your problem.

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That sounds like the very common FirePower and lately Williams problems. One of the 4 flipper coil diodes is blown. It intermittently happens when both flippers are hit at the same time which happens a lot during multiball play.

 

They seem to handle a diode blown when only one flipper is hit but cause a reset when both are hit.

 

You may be lucky and this is your problem.

 

Wow, thanks Steve. I'll have a look at that on the weekend, Cheers.

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Wow, thanks Steve. I'll have a look at that on the weekend, Cheers.

 

I may not be your issue but this is very common.

 

Let's hope this fixes your FirePower. If not, we'll dig around a bit more. It is one of my all time favourite machines and I've owned and worked on quite a few.

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Nice find. Usually it is the GI bare wire they ground to. It sounds like the bakalite D plate was damaged on the popbumper as well to allow the "powered" bracket to short to the matrix.

 

The bakalite "should be the only thing the switch would come in contact with.

 

It is not unusually for some people to have the D plate push the contacts together, ( like a Gottlieb), rather than the switch naturally coming together when the D ring moves out of the way when the coil is activated.

 

In other words, the switch's longest blade should be sitting on the D plate side closest to the coil and not under the D plate closest to the playfield.

 

Maybe the switch is out of adjustment allowing it to contact the metal of the D ring or the bumper ring metal, who knows.

 

This problem is so similar to a World Cup 94 I have just done I wrote about in the Dedshed thread.

 

You are spot on. Normally the situation you describe causes no issue, it's only when something else untoward happened that I got the grief.

The switches look like they have been cut down because they were too long, and only one of them would short to the pop ring intermittently when the pop was actuated by hand, along with this the coil only shorted intermittently with the slight play in the solenoid which is why I could play the game without blowing one of the boards, which I suppose was lucky but didn't help with determining the actual fault.

I will be suggesting to Al to buy some new steel bits and some new switches. At least we now know what to look for :D

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I may not be your issue but this is very common.

 

Let's hope this fixes your FirePower. If not, we'll dig around a bit more. It is one of my all time favourite machines and I've owned and worked on quite a few.

I had the same symptoms on my Firepower a while back ... in my case a broken solder connection on a flipper diide which you could not spot without the old tug test.

 

Sent from my SM-A520F using Aussie Arcade mobile app

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