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A guide to connecting your Windows PC to an SD CRT TV, PVM or Arcade Monitor


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crt_emudriver beta15 is out! Support now goes up to Radeon RX Vega series cards, down through the RX 500, RX 400 right on down to where it used to.

 

Important to note that a lot of newer cards don't have analog output. I think conversion from HDMI might be recommended, though i'm not sure about DVI-D or DP. And there are dotclock limitations again on newer cards :/

 

Calamity says:

There's a serious limitation however with regards to the dotclocks these cards can support through HDMI. The minimum seems to be around 18 MHz, which not only prevents using low resolutions but even the usual 4:3 desktop modes like 640x480i. Super resolutions work nicely though, so they're perfectly usable for GroovyMAME.

 

I'd say cards up to the R7/9 300 series are still going to be easier to work with, though Atom15 compatibility might be an issue there as well.

 

Some more really interesting info in the thread where calamity announced the driver release, on how messed up things are getting with newer cards.

Edited by buttersoft
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  • 3 months later...

Interesting that no one has mentioned combining H and V from syncs from VGA with 1K resistors twisted together to get an attenuated composite sync signal to feed TV. It might sound quick and dirty but it works. Bugger buying an an adapter.

 

If you are using csync and want it to go to a TV's AV port (or scart), a single 1K resistor should do the trick.

 

These resistors coupled with the 75R in the TV set form a voltage divider, the maths says 5V * 75/ (1000 + 75) = 0.35V

Edited by MarkOZLAD
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Interesting that no one has mentioned combining H and V from syncs from VGA with 1K resistors twisted together to get an attenuated composite sync signal to feed TV.

 

Lol, it's in the section on cabling in the third post, and it's always been there :) As have the notes about adjusting it to see how different resistance values will affect interlace flicker with different consoles on different TV's.

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  • 1 year later...

Thank you for the guide =D :041:

 

I have a question for you if you have any spare time (and still read this thread, I realize I am a little late to the party :rolleyes)

 

I would like to use my current PC with Windows 10 on a PVM (JVC-V1710CG) in combination with my LCD(s) (for playing older PC games and just in general experience how it is to use a modern PC with a PVM and see what certain videos look like etc). At the time being I am not interested in arcade game emulating (GM), so I hope my journey will be easier in that sense. I am also not in the dire need for the Atom-15 features if I have understood correctly.

 

I tried to reach the crt_emudriver forum which you have linked to, but it seems to be down atm.

 

Let's say I go for the AMD Radeon R9 380 (which is the top notch GPU that is supported by crt_emudriver if I understood correctly? What about R9 390X and R9 FURY?), would it be as simple as:

1. Swap my current GPU to the R9 380

2. Install fresh Windows

3. Install/setup crt_emudriver

4. Buy a DVI to VGA adapter and VGA to RGBHV cable, and connect those to the PVM

5. Turn on computer and wait for Windows to show up on my LCD(s)

6. Turn on PVM?

 

Am I missing something? =)

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1. Swap my current GPU to the R9 380 - yes

2. Install fresh Windows - may as well try your current install first, unless you particularly want to reinstall

3. Install/setup crt_emudriver - yup

4. Buy a DVI to VGA adapter and VGA to RGBHV cable, and connect those to the PVM - yes, remembering to set composite sync in CRT emudriver, and plug in the H-sync lead to the JVC's sync input.

5. Turn on computer and wait for Windows to show up on my LCD(s) - yes

6. Turn on PVM? - yes

 

You probably want to buy the lead first, and remember to follow Calamity's install guide closely.

 

A more powerful card like a Radeon Vega will work, as long as you can find an HDMI adapter that is fine at 15kHz with C-sync. I have one, but i'm trying to find more for use with my MiSTer, and having no luck. When these work they are excellent, but i'm not sure about EDID emulation or other factors as i haven't used them for crt_emudriver. Google the arcadecontrol forum and find the groovymame section and ask more questions on there, is my recommendation :)

 

What era PC games do you want to play? CGA is 15kHz, but VGA games are 31kHz and you'd do better with a PC CRT?

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Thank you for the surprisingly quick reply! =) Most appreciated.

 

- yes, remembering to set composite sync in CRT emudriver, and plug in the H-sync lead to the JVC's sync input. - H-sync lead to the JVS's sync input? My JVC has G/B/R/HD/VD inputs.

 

(...)buy the lead(...)

what's a lead? =)

 

A more powerful card like Radeon Vega...

I was of the understanding that an older card with VGA (analog) output would deliver signals with less delay. I want that =D I was also of the understanding that the newer cards like Vega would in general be more of hassle to set up? For my use I do not think I will "need" such power from the GPU.

 

(...)arcadecontrol forum(...)

Thanks! I will check it out.

 

What era PC games do you want to play?

Warcraft 3 is the main motivational factor for this. Although, as mentioned, I would like to just see in general what various videos, shows, pictures etc etc would look like on a PVM.

 

CGA is 15kHz, but VGA games are 31kHz and you'd do better with a PC CRT?

I don't really understand this yet. Does different games output different kHz signal? My PVM does support both, so I plan to set up the card and emudriver to output in 31kHz - is that a bad idea?

A PC CRT would probably be pretty cool as well, although it would not have the same picture quality as my PVM I believe?

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15kHz means 240p/480i, or old SD content and games

31kHz or higher means VGA/480p or up from that.

This is explained in a little more detail in section e) of the guide.

 

By lead i meant VGA-to-BNC cable. The RGBHV 5 BNC cable you suggest should be fine either way. A lot of pro monitors/PVM's only have a single sync input - into which you feed composite sync. Any old console gives RGBS (S being composite sync, or uses composite video for sync). If you force crt_emudriver to deliver composite sync, it comes out of pin 13 of the VGA port, which is normally c-sync. In that last case, you don't need to use v-sync at all. Stick to H+V sync though, if you can, as it probably less complicated overall, and HDMI adapters prefer it...

 

I was a bit leery of HDMI adapters, but decent ones have (effectively) no framebuffer, and thus no lag, they're just working on the fly. You're right in that you may not need a card that new or powerful. And you will probably have to contend with the dotclock limit as well, so a 380x or lower is easier.

 

A high end PC CRT from the late 90's or early 2000's is going to give better picture quality for PC games in general, until you get to older CGA games because those are 15kHz/SD-res and would need to be linedoubled to 31kHz to show up. So a PC monitor is not as felxible as a multiscan PVM.

Edited by buttersoft
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Can I jump on the bandwagon with a question? I thought the HD series were fine for CRT in a cab? I’ve seen 5450s often recommended... I’m looking at a mini-ATX setup I can swing into my cabs and was looking at low profile cards and saving some money with an older, hopefully passively cooled GPU. If all I’m after is 15k gaming is there much need to go for a beefier, modern GPU?
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Can I jump on the bandwagon with a question? I thought the HD series were fine for CRT in a cab? I’ve seen 5450s often recommended... I’m looking at a mini-ATX setup I can swing into my cabs and was looking at low profile cards and saving some money with an older, hopefully passively cooled GPU. If all I’m after is 15k gaming is there much need to go for a beefier, modern GPU?

 

It's marginal. A more powerful card will help push pixels faster, and thus allow you to hit higher frame-delay settings (think lag reduction). The gains are diminishing, but this is about perfection, no? :)

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Ohhh... is CGA an even "earlier" analog port?

 

I would assume it would be preferable to roll with 31kHz in my usecase, since I do not (at the time being) plan to watch/play that old content.

 

By lead i meant VGA-to-BNC cable. The RGBHV 5 BNC cable you suggest should be fine either way.
- when I search for those two things, "VGA-to-BNC" and "RGBHV 5 BNC", the same exact cables are showing up on the pictures, am I missing something?

 

Stick to H+V sync though, if you can, as it probably less complicated overall,
- Gotcha!

 

A high end PC CRT from the late 90's or early 2000's is going to give better picture quality for PC games in general
- Even better than PVM's?
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It's marginal. A more powerful card will help push pixels faster, and thus allow you to hit higher frame-delay settings (think lag reduction). The gains are diminishing, but this is about perfection, no? :)

 

If you’re going to do it, do it right then :) Very keen on pushing the frame delay as high as practical within the budget.

 

I was thinking of going for a Ryzen build and grabbing a Ryzen 3 3200 or 3300X, 8gb of RAM and a NVME SSD to keep things tidy. Would this be on the mark or should I be going for an Intel build?

 

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If you’re going to do it, do it right then :) Very keen on pushing the frame delay as high as practical within the budget.

 

I was thinking of going for a Ryzen build and grabbing a Ryzen 3 3200 or 3300X, 8gb of RAM and a NVME SSD to keep things tidy. Would this be on the mark or should I be going for an Intel build?

Sounds fine, no reason to go Intel over AMD for CPU. Nor the reverse. This is minus GPU at this point?

 

- Even better than PVM's?
For 31kHz+ content, probably, yes

 

 

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Sounds fine, no reason to go Intel over AMD for CPU. Nor the reverse. This is minus GPU at this point?

 

Correct - remembered I have a RX460 in my main PC and was thinking of moving this into the MAME build but realised it doesn’t have native analogue, so will add the GPU into the build budget. The only reason to consider Intel is if mobos are better. Hopefully a 300w PSU will have more than enough power, trying to keep the build small enough to throw into a cocktail once I’ve rebuilt it :)

 

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For 31kHz+ content, probably, yes

 

I guess I've probably just assumed that PVM's give better picture than PC CRT's since PVM's are "Professional Video Monitor" and PC CRT's are more directed at consumers. But PVM's is probably just really good for 240p content I guess, since they do 15 kHz signal, which PC CRT's don't?

 

More questions if you have the time:

 

Regarding CRT's when not in active use,

 

Should it be turned off/on (like standby mode)? Should the main power button be turned off/on? Should you remove the entire power cable? Is it any difference between the types (like SD CRT vs PVM vs PC CRT)? :)

 

cheers

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Everything is safest with the power cable removed. Failing that, I tend to turn mine off rather than leaving them on standby. It might not make much difference.

 

i should probably qualify that earlier statement and say that a nice, high-end, late model 21" PC CRT is going to be better than a multiformat BVM/PVM for higher res content. Higher end PC CRT's tended to be used in professional settings. Smaller, late model PC crt's will still be fine. But older, smaller ones might not be as nice.

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Hello everybody, first post here. I've read buttersoft's excellent guide long time ago, but have only put a PC-to-CRT TV rig together recently. It's a Win 10, i5, Radeon 6450 -> Ultimate SCART Adapter -> Sony Trinitron TV.

 

I installed the CRT Emudriver and GroovyMAME and got it working, more or less . Problems have appeared when I had tried to get Retroarch to play nice, things got a bit messy then. Was wondering if:

 

-anybody got Retroarch running with switchres and Custom Resolutions ON seamlessly? I can make individual emus work but it's a hit and miss process, because some configs get rewritten (or don't save?), also it's a pain because resolutions get too small or big and I don't feel in control at all.

 

-it's true that to adjust vertical resolutions for GMAME I need to mess with my service menu? There is no way to do it from Arcade OSD?

 

-somebody knows how to get standalone emulators to display properly?

 

Thanks in advance!

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-anybody got Retroarch running with switchres and Custom Resolutions ON seamlessly? I can make individual emus work but it's a hit and miss process, because some configs get rewritten (or don't save?), also it's a pain because resolutions get too small or big and I don't feel in control at all.

You'd be better off asking on the Arcade Controls Forum, in the GroovyMAME subforum :)

 

-it's true that to adjust vertical resolutions for GMAME I need to mess with my service menu? There is no way to do it from Arcade OSD?

Not effectively, no. Changing the timing is not likely to adjust the vertical position or size.

 

-somebody knows how to get standalone emulators to display properly?

Depends on the emulator. Most of them will have a native output/240p mode, but you'd have to try each one and see.

 

 

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Thanks for replying. I thought about Arcade Controls but after browsing some threads there seems to be a low response ration. Besides, it's been down for "rebuild" for quite a few weeks now.

 

I think I can more or less handle GM itself, and problem with Retroarch is more related to configs. But that standalone emu thing is really bugging me. I've just spent couple aftrernoons trying to get Amiga to display properly, nearly got there but still see some glitches. Any chance you have some example emulator you got to work I could follow as an example?

 

Also, do you think using a monitor (I have a LCD to handle the menus etc) in addition to my CRT TV at the same time might affect things negatively?

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  • 3 weeks later...

Sorry, i blanked on you reply somehow...

 

I don't have any examples anymore. I remember setting up both Kega Fusion and MagicEngine that way though. And Mednafen for PCFX, which requires a bit more effort.

 

In theory using two monitors at once is fine, as long as you don't want to show two games at once (interacting with both at once will be kinda tricky, if not impossible in a lot of cases) or even that you don't want to show the main MAME screen on both - MAME has trouble with clones screens, or it always used to.

 

If what you want is to leave your LCD plugged in at the same time it should be ok, though you might have some initial setup to troubleshoot.

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  • 5 months later...

Hi, I am new here

 

First I would like to thank you for the detailed guide, it feels overwhelming since I'm new to this subject

 

If my goal is to watch anime(4:3) only, wouldn't the ps3 with external drive be enough? or the image quality will degraded just like using "cheap video converter from Ebay" ?

 

 

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Hi, I am new here

 

First I would like to thank you for the detailed guide, it feels overwhelming since I'm new to this subject

 

If my goal is to watch anime(4:3) only, wouldn't the ps3 with external drive be enough? or the image quality will degraded just like using "cheap video converter from Ebay" ?

 

 

Welcome to AA!

 

A PS3 is a great way to watch anime on a CRT. No problems there.

 

This thread is really only about connecting a Windows 7 or 10 PC to an old CRT, so you won't find anything about the PS3 here :)

Edited by buttersoft
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  • 3 months later...

This is a post about HDMI-to-VGA converters! About time, i hear no one at all say!

HDMI is a semi-viable option for newer AMD cards that do not output analog video directly - assuming you get a card that is supported by crt_emudriver to begin with. Some cards have dot-clock minimums to contend with as well (read the main guide for more on dot clocks.) You then require an HDMI-to-VGA converter that can handle 15kHz SD video as RGBS. (And from there, a VGA-to-whatever cable your display needs.)

Most older, cheaper HDMI-to-VGA dongles are fine. They look like the below example. You can often find them cheap in ewaste. These may or may not offer audio output, which doesn't matter much for a PC, but might for MiSTer.

index.jpg.500bac9672ccea0d611614370572a335.jpg

Newer HDMI-to-VGA converters, even ones that look like the above, tend not to use the previously ubiquitous AG6200 converter chip, and do not work for 15kHz RGBS. Buying branded examples (comsol, ugreen, belkin, vention, etc.) might help, but it's pretty much a crapshoot now.

The only example i can find that actually lists an AG6200 chip inside is this one on eBay. (I haven't used it myself, so i can't guarantee it, but i have used a slightly older Vention one, also listing the same chipset, and it does work fine.)

Edited by buttersoft
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No, this is a proper DAC. So digital HDMI through to analog VGA output. I think the AG6200 chip, along with other good options, doesn't use a framebuffer (if only because it's cheaper not to). It's converting on the fly at 1:1 and not changing the resolution.  It doesn't add much if any lag.

There are terrible converters out there as well, you just need to find a decent one.

Edited by buttersoft
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