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VP test build and T2 Chrome


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Late last year I took a look at virtual pinball on Youtube and thought I'd set myself a project to get up and running over the Christmas break to see what it was like out of computer parts we had lying around at work and ordered a cheap encoder and some buttons and a digital nudge from Ozstick. I setup a crude test rig with a box that supports monitor and holds buttons. Have been spending equal parts playing and configuring. Have installed visual pinball and pinball x as a front end.

 

IMG_2192.thumb.jpg.352a4f618bbc7496e9556e92ed5b71ea.jpg

 

I have to say it has been worthwhile and closer to pulling the trigger on building a cabinet (probably a mini cab though).

 

From my testing to date the one thing that lets down every table I've tried except one is the real time nature of the 3D rendering. The forced anti aliasing, AO and shadows that can be enabled in the real time rendering helps but more often than not will introduce a fraction of button lag on my setup or a frame rate hit which effects fluidity of ball movement (i7, SSD, 10gb and GTX580).

 

I've also had a very quick play trying to play with the textures and lighting on a table to see what improvement can be made to make it look less plastic but need to find a bit more info on how that works first but initial test was promising.

 

There has been one table though that has blown my mind. The T2 chrome edition that was built for VP9 a few years ago. From my research the guy who made it is from a film animation background and this table was built using from what I can piece together an older methodology which uses the realtime 3D as a base and then the visual representation uses 3D rendered sprites I think called EM reels. A more time consuming method as you are creating a lot of the content in a high end 3D program as well as the VP builder and seemed to attract criticism by some because it means you are locked to that view can no longer change angle of table or mode (desktop or cab). But man this is one amazing table and nothing comes close to the quality (Cirqus Voltaire is next best I reckon in terms of detail and shading quality). If you haven't installed it you need to try it. I'm considering building a T2 minicab just for this alone. I have a real T2 at my studio and this plays very true to the original and I play just as badly on this :)

 

T2 Chrome edition (1.07)

IMG_2442.thumb.jpg.7ce5809a0515fc61a14582875435c117.jpg IMG_3117.thumb.jpg.286036a7d66978295d732700b5e3a5a4.jpg IMG_3992.thumb.jpg.a54b9ea15c204685396219c2386e99c2.jpg

 

Cirqus Voltaire (best other example I've found so far, plays awesome, looks awesome and most importantly is an awesome game.

IMG_5365.thumb.jpg.ca8118e808993c48ed774003981c35ba.jpg

 

Closeup comparison of the two approaches showing how fine detail resovles

realtimejaggies.thumb.jpg.46e2883119a98f6c272ac98a8c9bfd2a.jpg IMG_3117_CU.thumb.jpg.ce381bcc50cedac1b81a4ad23a779388.jpg

 

So I ask I'm sure lots of other creators look at Chrome too and see how much better it is, have there been other tables produced like this or is this the one jewel amongst the rest? If so I guess we will need the tech to advance further before realtime tables can also look this good (and it will come). I'd also be interested to hear from others what other tables they've found to be as good as Cirqus Voltaire. I also wondered if a better video card changes anything but I doubt it.

 

One other thing I stumbled across and plan to look at next was BAM. It works with the Future Pinball emulator and allows you to use something like a Kinect camera that can track you or a PlayStation eye camera to track a small led rig you wear on a hat to provide realtime 3D perspective on the table you are playing based on your head movements. Looks very cool and eliminates the flat feeling you get from a fixed perspective.

 

BAM website

http://www.ravarcade.pl

 

In use with PS Eye and Head Track LED

 

T2 Bam style

 

 

Next steps is to decide if I am going to stick with the 23 inch LCDs I had lying in the cupboard or pick up a better screen for the playfield. Probably thinking it would be a 27 or 32 inch. Was eyeing off the Samsung 32" LED TVs in sales. I can see myself hunting for T2 artwork too, to get some minicab decals made too, DMD....

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Have you tried VP10.2, I think you should, No doubt T2 was cutting edge VP at the time and still holds up as a great table recreation, though VP10.2 is producing the best latest table releases and really does have way better physics. Also VP10.2 has recently been tweaked to reduce input lag to the minimum which really makes a difference in the flipper feel and is in current on going developement. At the moment they are looking into inproving the way VP can utilise AA to eliminate those jaggies, that are still noticable even with the force 4xAA option enabled, overiding graphics setting in the drivers doesn't really work with VPX.

 

Anyhow here's a pic of the latest VPX Funhouse @ 85% .jpeg reducution, it plays even better the it looks...

 

http://vpforums.org/imghost/115/fhfs_t.jpg

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VP test build and T2 Chrome

 

Have you tried VP10.2, I think you should, No doubt T2 was cutting edge VP at the time and still holds up as a great table recreation, though VP10.2 is producing the best latest table releases and really does have way better physics. Also VP10.2 has recently been tweaked to reduce input lag to the minimum which really makes a difference in the flipper feel and is in current on going developement. At the moment they are looking into inproving the way VP can utilise AA to eliminate those jaggies, that are still noticable even with the force 4xAA option enabled, overiding graphics setting in the drivers doesn't really work with VPX.

 

Anyhow here's a pic of the latest VPX Funhouse @ 85% .jpeg reducution, it plays even better than it looks

 

Hey thanks for that yeah I've got 10.2 running and had downloaded the new Funhouse but needed to grab the rom which I did today and yep it is cool. But still hasn't got to the realism T2 Chrome has achieved. There are a few T2 ones out there called chrome this is the one I'm referring too.

 

http://www.vpforums.org/index.php?app=downloads&showfile=6105

 

I think it's the realism in the texture detail that is a big part of it. I work in 3D animation so my eye has become fussy. The 10.2 realtime path will get there in a few more advances. What let's some down is the detail of the playfield art. Details in the T2 one where he's worked to get the imperfection into all the playfield lights and surface textures on the metals are so nicely done.

 

Funhouse is a definite keeper love it, any other ones on your list of new tables that are awesome?

 

Wondering about my playfield monitor and whether it's worth going an ultra hd to get 4K can't believe how cheap they are getting but I'm guessing the gtx will need upgrading to handle that and this started out of building from parts I had available. If I'm going to spend to much on build feel a real table should be reconsidered ....dilemmas

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VP test build and T2 Chrome

 

Had an idea about using a curved monitor for the playfield. If you mount it so that the end closest to you is your lowest point and then the curvature upward is from this point you could technically change the camera viewing angle of the playfield to be less top down which would create a more dynamic perspective (closer to the angle desktop tables are setup). In my head it seems like it would work well. Has anyone tried it and improve your field of view. Just wondering if it would make for some strange ball trajectories.

 

cfe1de90d85313ff25b4023371f745f8.jpg

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To me, desktop tables look nothing like how you view a real pinball. The top down perspective , full screen is meant to imitate a real pinball, and it does that very well.

 

T2 Chrome is a famous/legendary build and was a standout for It's time, for all the reasons you already listed, but vp10 is a huge step up in realism, lighting, and physics. That last point the most important, flipping the ball feels very close to a real pinball.

 

Couple that with a more recent card and....when you can have all textures maxed out, realtime reflections, etc and so on, you'll find many vp10 tables meet or exceed that t2 chrome.

 

The latest vp10 builds are being fully 3D rendered outside of VP, then imported in and assembled part by part on the playfield. This includes posts, screws, all toys, etc. T2 Chrome was a vp9 holy grail, but what these guys are doing with vp10 is surpassing it easily.

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To me, desktop tables look nothing like how you view a real pinball. The top down perspective , full screen is meant to imitate a real pinball, and it does that very well.

 

Of course I'm only talking about a few degrees really to compensate for the fov the curved screen would provide.

 

 

 

T2 Chrome is a famous/legendary build and was a standout for It's time, for all the reasons you already listed, but vp10 is a huge step up in realism, lighting, and physics. That last point the most important, flipping the ball feels very close to a real pinball.

 

Couple that with a more recent card and....when you can have all textures maxed out, realtime reflections, etc and so on, you'll find many vp10 tables meet or exceed that t2 chrome.

 

The latest vp10 builds are being fully 3D rendered outside of VP, then imported in and assembled part by part on the playfield. This includes posts, screws, all toys, etc. T2 Chrome was a vp9 holy grail, but what these guys are doing with vp10 is surpassing it easily.

 

 

Thanks for all this. I guess I'm comparing T2 chrome with my real T2 and it plays pretty close to be fair.

 

With what you are saying about VP10 I'm wondering if there are settings I'm not aware of re: lighting and rendering detail (have played with the 4xanti alias and fxaa, AO, shadows and reflections on playfield.

 

Im assuming the card is only contributing to fps not rendering options or does it?

 

Can you point me to a table setup as you are describing or a screenshot?

 

The tables seem to be setup for a lowest common dominator by default so I get tweaking is involved but haven't found the secret sauce that makes the differences you are describing. Help on what to adjust would be appreciated.

 

Cheers ~

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To be honest, I don't know what to adjust. I'm using a 970gtx and have everything set to maximum, don't really need to fiddle with settings, so maybe others could point you in the right direction. 10.2 builds (especially those by Tom Tower/Ninuzzu) have all that realism you're talking about with 3d modelling but with real physics and much more advanced lighting routines that simulate flashers, LED's, and glows heaps better than vp9 does.

 

That said I still play many vp9 tables that are not available in vp10 yet :)

 

If you haven't, check out the monsterbashpincab site or vpinball where the authors post their 3D rendered WIP's, the upcoming builds of Indiana Jones and STTNG look phenomenal !

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Well after various adjustments trying various VPX video settings, I've finalised these as the best here as in the image link...

 

http://vpforums.org/imghost/115/vps2.jpg

 

Cheers thanks for posting, yeah confirms that I've been playing with same settings. Thought there may have been some other settings elsewhere. With those sort of settings I find the gtx580 drops from around 160fps to 60fps and some games can have a touch of flipper lag. What sort of frame rate are you getting and what card are you running?

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Cheers thanks for posting, yeah confirms that I've been playing with same settings. Thought there may have been some other settings elsewhere. With those sort of settings I find the gtx580 drops from around 160fps to 60fps and some games can have a touch of flipper lag. What sort of frame rate are you getting and what card are you running?

 

I have a GTX660 and a core i3 Haswell @ 3.4Ghz, though this is my PC, so it's a single monitor DT setup. I do get about 100fps average, it does not drop below the 60fps mark and can hit 180fps without VSync on and that is with many background tasks going on that a cabinet would not be running, it will stutter if I have video streaming to the TV via chrome/chromecast/videostream, otherwise it's fine with FF, utorrent and other stuff going on back there.

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I've seen some chatter about the ' exclusive full screen ' checkbox supplies a better result, though I don't know how or why, haven't looked into it cause when I try to run it, VP crashes before the table loads. Anyone tried that mode?
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As I've said in a few other threads, don't get too caught up on frame rates as they tend to not accurately indicate how smoothly a table will play on your setup.

 

I've seen really low FPS on some tables and they are as smooth as butter with no lag at all, then others with HIGH FPS that are laggy as hell with horrible stutter!

 

You need to keep tweaking your video settings in VPX until you find the sweet spot where the microstutter is completely gone on as many tables as possible before you start noticing too much loss in image quality.

 

Pick the table that runs worst in VPX on your setup, then start switching these settings one at a time:

 

FXAA - swap it to Standard.

Ambient Occlusion - uncheck Enable. **This made a big difference on my setup with no noticeable loss in quality.

Force Anisotropic Texture Filtering - uncheck.

FPS Limiter/VSync - change to 0.

Reflect Ball on Playfield - uncheck. Ball reflection looks really nice, especially on EM tables, but it made a noticeable difference disabling it on my setup so I do without!

 

To be clear I'm not suggesting you do ALL the above, just tweak them one at a time until you find your "sweet spot". Don't forget to restart VPX every time so it picks up the new settings.......

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