Jump to content
Due to a large amount of spamers, accounts will now have to be approved by the Admins so please be patient. ×
  • 0
IGNORED

The Poor Man's DOF (Tactile Feedback)


RustyCardores

Question

***********************************************************************************************************************

If you like this Drunken Idea, be sure to check out my 'Virtual Pinball Toppers' at http://www.aussiearcade.com/showthread.php/83000-Virtual-Pinball-Topper

***********************************************************************************************************************

 

***NEWS ALERT - December 2017***

 

We have changed our name to SSF (Surround Sound Feedback)

 

We are now on Facebook with our very own Surround Sound Feedback Group

 

 

***** JULY 2017 - NEW DEVELOPMENT!*****

 

Thanks to the efforts of DJRobX, Surround Sound is NOW AVAILABLE in VPX 10.4 Beta and some new tables have already been released to make use of this new feature, while other tables are being recoded by myself to make use of surround sound. **These recoded tables are being released at the table author's discretion, so please do not ask me for copies. Ask them and put the pressure on ;) lol ....It's important that table authors see the demand for surround coded tables.

 

VPX Surround is a game changer for PMD, as we will now be able to apply directional sound & feedback to any position on a table! I have been Beta testing this new development with my current PMD system and it is TOTALLY AMAZEBALLS!!!!

 

Those (like me) with a current "2 Amp - 4 Exciter" PMD system will be able to use this feature, provided that their sound card supports surround sound. New users yet to implement the system, may wish to consider using a single 7.1 surround sound amp or DJRobX's layout, in place of the additional subs required for PMD Mk1 (non-surround)

 

A visual representation of Surround config options...

 

PMD Mk1 (pre surround sound). Also Compatible with PMD Mk2 Surround Sound.

attachment.php?attachmentid=114430&d=1502148337

 

PMD Mk2 Surround Sound - Single Amp (expensive)

attachment.php?attachmentid=114431&d=1502148360

 

PMD Mk2 Surround Sound - Multiple Amps with Windows bass management to singular subwoofer (cheaper & can still utilise PMD Mk1 components)

attachment.php?attachmentid=115382&d=1503988784

 

**EXCITER PLACEMENT: Place them on the cab side wall close to the flipper/playfield level. Keep them about 15cm from the rigid corners of the cab. Too close and you may lose some of the vibes as the cab wall rigidity increases.

 

My links to the parts used. Please note that the Jaycar components listed here are also available in the USA....

 

2 x Lepy 838 Amps https://www.aliexpress.com and search "Lepy 838"

4 (5 if you want one under the lockdown) x 70mm Exciters https://www.jaycar.com.au/70mm-flat-panel-exciter-speaker/p/AS3039

1 x Subwoofer https://www.jaycar.com.au/4-paper-cone-woofer-midrange/p/CW2190 (or https://www.jaycar.com.au/5-paper-cone-woofer-midrange/p/CW2192 if you have space and a little more $)

Plus some speaker wire and a bit of timber to mount the audio sub (bracket it off the back of the cab or run it across from both sides... whatever works in your cab)

 

See also: http://vpuniverse.com/forums/topic/3232-new-vpx-feature-surround-sound-output/

 

So that's the current state of affairs with PMD. The diagrams above are self explanatory and thanks to these, we have found that users now have a much better understanding of PMD and the simplicity of the system.

 

I will continue to update the above section with new developments as they arise.

 

From this point on, you will be reading the development thread (contains installation images). Please note that early recommendations and results contained in this thread may no longer apply to the above PMD Mk2.

 

______________________________________

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

*****************************************

ORIGINAL DEVELOPMENT THREAD CONTINUES.....

*****************************************

 

 

*PLEASE NOTE: This thread covers the evolution of Poor Man's DOF (Sound Driven Tactile Feedback), please read to the end, as the PMD found there is far more advanced and effective that what you will find early in this thread.

 

Also, I will update this section with users's PMD reviews as they come in, rather than having you hunt for them through the thread....

 

1: 18mm High Density MDF - "Could be better. Too dense for really good vibe transmission. Exciter placement is critical." (Reported by @RustyCardores)

2: 16 or 18mm Pine (custom lockdown bar) - "Brilliant! Transmits every vibe from the smallest ball rolling to the loudest bumper. Hands on the actual vibe plate is extremely effective." (Reported by @RustyCardores)

3: Plywood (23 year old Judge Dredd) - "Excellent! JayCar Amp and Exciters mounted on side under flipper buttons." (Reported by @Jed)

4: Plywood (original F-14 cab with Dayton Exciters) - "WHAT AN EFFECT ! You can feel every bump, droptarget, kicker, and such, it's just great !" (Reported by @Nemo)

5: 16mm MDF - "I'm using a 16mm MDF CAB and and didn't expect much feel, but F#%cking amaze balls it feels real." (Reported by @DalasJ)

 

And for those of you who couldn't be stuffed reading this thread and just want to jump right in boots 'n all, here is my personal shopping list for the parts needed... (Most parts listed are from Jaycar Australia, but our international readers should easily be able to find matching products from local suppliers. Google is your friend!)

 

2 x Lepy 838 Amps https://www.aliexpress.com and search "Lepy 838"

4 (5 if you want one under the lockdown) x 70mm Exciters https://www.jaycar.com.au/70mm-flat-panel-exciter-speaker/p/AS3039

1 x Subwoofer https://www.jaycar.com.au/4-paper-cone-woofer-midrange/p/CW2190 (or https://www.jaycar.com.au/5-paper-cone-woofer-midrange/p/CW2192 if you have space and a little more $)

Plus some speaker wire and a bit of timber to mount the audio sub (bracket it off the back of the cab or run it across from both sides... whatever works in your cab)

 

Change from $200... how much will depend on what stuff you have laying around. I have heaps of RCA leads/splitters/speaker wire/timber from projects over the years and that has allowed me to keep things around the $150-160 mark.

 

*** PMD Scripts Mods (Table sound & balance tweaks to suit PMD configured pinCabs) are available at http://vpinball.com/VPBdownloads/categories/pmd-sound-driven-tactile-feedback/

 

---------------------------------------------

Original Post:

 

Doing an update on my vPinCab's tactile feedback today and thought some of you may like to see it.

 

Not having the $$$$ (or the will) to venture down the full on DOF route, I use a Boombox vibration sound driver mounted under my custom lockbar. Until today, I had one driver mounted in the middle, but I have now moved it to the side under my left hand and added a second Boombox under my right (used a 2x splitter on the TV audio out). This of course increases the amount of feedback that I feel.

 

Mechanical sounds have been separated from music/voice in VP's audio options and these are supplied the playfield TV and then on to the Boomboxes.

 

Boombox units (aka X-Vibe3) can be found online (China) for as little as $20 free delivery and they can be installed in less than a minute. If you have been wanting feedback, but are like me and $$$ or motivation has stopped you installing DOF, then I can recommend this method as a cheap & easy alternative.

 

It really is quite effective.... I feel every bump of the ball, I feel the flippers activate, hell I even feel the ball rolling on the table... and I don't think DOF even goes that far does it?

 

The only issue I see for some, is the sound itself. Boomboxes will turn anything into a speaker, but the sound will vary with the material used. Mine sounds great on a timber lockbar, but stainless may sound different. So I wouldn't rule out the need of laminating a bit of ply under the stainless to adjust the sound. #experiment

 

Cheers

 

Rusty

 

Boom1.thumb.jpg.fe082dd8aefaca50eb3096a43d847ece.jpg

Boom2.thumb.jpg.8e01f4818d524f9dd8a5ccc0f3a72f31.jpg

PMD-DIagram-3_DJRobX.thumb.jpg.a272cbd10be5e551cea93fbf6fad25a6.jpg

Edited by RustyCardores
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Answers 491
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters For This Question

Top Posters For This Question

Posted Images

Recommended Posts

  • 0
These sounds are not vpmsounds so therefore need to be directed to the backglass manualy.

 

Open the table in the editor, open the Sound Manager, select the sounds and toggle them to the backglass. Save the table.

 

Thanks for your reply. I already looked in table manager and the sounds that I hear through my center speaker are already set to the backglass. When I use the play button in sound manager I hear them through my center speaker.

Any other ideas or suggestions?

 

Sorry, I missed the center speaker bit in your original post. First up, this problem aside, try using the device name instead of primary. Things are different in 7.1 & using primary can result in a lower volume I believe.

 

The best thing to do is join our group on Facebook, as we have the VPX Sound Engineer there and he (Rob Ross) is a marvel at surround sound. I think this issue is most likely related to using 5.1 and how you have configured your outputs. Sometimes a simple remapping of the outputs is required.

 

As you can tell, this is definietely not my area of expertise and why Rob is the man ;) I hope to see you in the group soon.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0
For those people in Perth. I went to Jaycar to get some exciters. There was 1 left in the Northbridge store. They got 3 more in for me from the Joondalup store which is all they had left at that store. There seems to only be a handful of these left scattered across theother stores in WA.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0
For those people in Perth. I went to Jaycar to get some exciters. There was 1 left in the Northbridge store. They got 3 more in for me from the Joondalup store which is all they had left at that store. There seems to only be a handful of these left scattered across theother stores in WA.

 

You were lucky - I went to 4 different stores in Melb's eastern suburbs and the best they'd do was tell me what other stores had stock - no amount of grovelling would sway any of them to offer getting the remaining stock from other stores!

 

Fortunately there's a few different places to get exciters from.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0
Jaycar has probably never sold so many exciters as they have in the last couple of years lol! Be funny if they were wondering why :D

 

It also would have been good if they'd marked them as DISCONTINUED on their website so I knew to buy a lot more of them before they started running out!!!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0

I would be interested, what sort of $$ are you after?

I have two Jaycar and one Dayton bass shaker I think it was in excess to my needs if anyone is interested.

 

Sent from my HTC 2PZF1 using Tapatalk

 

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0
Close to money back would be nice. Unused apart from testing a bigger setup

 

Sent from my HTC 2PZF1 using Tapatalk

I'm mostly interested in the base shaker, I'm currently just running left right Jaycar exciters and a 3rd Jaycar exiter for bass, it doesn't seem to do much, I could use the extra exciters to upgrade to front/rear system. Keeping in mind I'm only using a minivp, thoughts?

 

Wob

 

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0

I have bass shakers left, right and centre with excites left and right and a sub woofer on the other amp. Cause my lock down is wood I had to up the ante to feel things

I'm mostly interested in the base shaker, I'm currently just running left right Jaycar exciters and a 3rd Jaycar exiter for bass, it doesn't seem to do much, I could use the extra exciters to upgrade to front/rear system. Keeping in mind I'm only using a minivp, thoughts?

 

Wob

 

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

 

Sent from my HTC 2PZF1 using Tapatalk

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0

Cool, it's more a want than a need, I'm pretty happy with the effect as it is, but PM me the $'s and I'll see :)

I have bass shakers left, right and centre with excites left and right and a sub woofer on the other amp. Cause my lock down is wood I had to up the ante to feel things

 

Sent from my HTC 2PZF1 using Tapatalk

 

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0
Cool, it's more a want than a need, I'm pretty happy with the effect as it is, but PM me the $'s and I'll see :)

 

Sent from my SM-G935F using Tapatalk

Did you go ahead with this wob? I'm interested in your thoughts if you've done it. I have to put my vpin back together shortly and thinking about changing a couple of things while its still in bits. Cheers

 

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Aussie Arcade mobile app

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0
So any thoughts on using 16mm mdf for the cab with using the exciters???

No good??

Should I go with plywood?

MDF is too dense and doesn't resonate the feel from the exciters. Ply you will feel everything - flippers, pops, slings, motors, even the ball dropping from a wire ramp onto the playfield.

 

You need to have the exciters on their own amp and on a separate audio channel (eg the headphone socket from the playfield tv) so the mechanical sounds can be piped to the exciters in the vp software, so you can feel all mechanical elements through your hands and the cab itself.

 

Sounds complicated but it isn't, really quick to setup and what a massive difference it makes to virtual pinball.

 

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Aussie Arcade mobile app

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0

Will go 18mm ply...

Costs more but worth it by the sounds of things...

Yeah got the amp and woofer and exciters all ready to plug into the playfield tv headphone jack.

Could go mdf in the backbox to save a bit of coin I guess??

Got a set of new legs...

New coin door..

Rails and plastic rails for glass..

New lockdown bar that I plan to cut through the middle to widen it and mount it to timber underneath and grind a spot to place a launch button like on AC/DC in the middle of the lockdown so you don't notice the gap in the middle as much..

Pinscape nudger encoder and plunger from ozstick along with a pin2dmd.

42" playfield

32" backglass

I run a cnc router at work so cutting the cab out on that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0

If you're worried about cost then you can always go with 15mm C/D Grade Plywood - it's cheaper and lighter than marine ply but will still give you plenty of strength. I've just put together two 3/4 size cabs using 15mm Ply for the side panels and 12mm Ply for the rest and they a re not only light, but REALLY strong.

 

Make sure the "C" side is to the outside as D Grade won't be smooth. I used black carbon fibre vehicle wrap and it adhered really well to the cabinets, just make sure you use a proper tack cloth to get rid of ALL the dust and you'll be right.

 

MDF it horrible, sinful stuff and every time I "have" to use it I vow to never do so again!!!

 

A suggestion for your lockdown bar - DO NOT drill a hole in it for the "AC/DC" button, but instead use the Right MagnaSave button which is already mapped in the table script. Also, instead of cutting the lockdown bar to widen it, take it to a metal shop and ask if the can fabricate on for you that is the correct width. I have a customer down in Tassie who is getting one done and the guy said he can fold it up no worries from a bit of scrap stainless, leave a gap in the corners which he'll fill by brazing in a wedge of stainless tubing then grind and polish it up. He's working off a borrowed lockdown bar so he can make sure he gets the profiles, radius bends etc spot on and it's only going to cost about $100!!!

 

I'll encourage him to post a new thread on AA once he gets the bar back so he can include some photos because I think it's important for VPin-heads to know that there are practical (and inexpensive) lockdown bar solutions out there. I mean, who would have thought to use a wedge of tube to create the proper rounded corner!!??

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0
Bottom half of the cab all done in 18mm ply

Just got to put it together...

[ATTACH]134434[/ATTACH][ATTACH]134435[/ATTACH]

Will start on it tomorrow....

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Aussie Arcade

 

Start a build thread rather than potentially derail this one - always good to see the different methods used to create a similar end result.:cool:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0
It's very simple... Your regular speakers/sub can stay as is, running off your computer's sound driver.

 

The additional amp/vibration drivers are fed from the computers secondary sound device. Generally we use HDMI to feed our play field screens and these HDMI outputs from the GPU also carry audio. So this means that our play field TV can be used at the secondary sound device.

 

Most TV's will have a "pre-amp" audio out on the rear using a 3.5mm jack. Feed this to the amp's input. Feed the amps sub output to your secondary sub (nice if you have one, but not absolutely required) and feed the left speaker output to one of the front drivers. Jump those connections (in parallel) over to the other front driver.

 

Feed the amp's right speaker output to one of the rear vibration drivers and jump it to the other rear in parallel also.

 

Now you will be able to adjust the volume front to back using the amps L/R Balance control.

 

In VP, split the sound output in the audio preferences, so that the mechanical sounds are sent to your TV.

 

NOTE: when connecting speakers in parallel, impedance will be halved. So if you have an amp with 8 ohm impedance, get the 16ohm drivers, as these will become 8ohm when connected together. Many of the amps will have a varied impedance ie 4-16amp so you have some leeway, but in these cases I would aim to end up in the middle at 8ohm. If you plan to only use 3 drivers (two for front that you feel and one for back for extra audio) then get an 8ohm driver for the back, as it will not be sharing the impedance like the front does.

 

EDIT: See links to amps below re balance control or sub-woofer output.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

 

 

It would be nice, but not to my knowledge. Many ROM sounds are just in mono even.

 

does this method work???

Wouldnt left and right sounds be coming from the wrong place as in front and back???

Im going to give this setup a go though and see how it sounds/feels as its an easy setup thats for sure....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0
does this method work???

Wouldnt left and right sounds be coming from the wrong place as in front and back???

Im going to give this setup a go though and see how it sounds/feels as its an easy setup thats for sure....

 

Yes it works, I use the same method (headphone jack from playfield tv) then assign this TV in the Vp audio settings to produce the mechanical sounds, the headphone jack is then connected to the amp with the left and right exciters and that's all you need to do to start feeling the seperated mechanical sounds left and right - no software mods needed.

 

note, if you want to use surround you will need more hardware (another amp + more exciters) PLUS you will need SSF modded versions of every game.

 

from playing lots of real pinball I don't think you can discern front from rear mechanicals when playing so i don't think surround (for me) is worthwhile given the extra hardware and software overheads it brings.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...