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Pinball HQ Coogee 2016


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Hey guys,

 

Norbert was asking about possible formats to use next year when the IFPA rankings system changes. At the moment it is play 7 games each Wednesday, winner is the one who is the highest ranked over those 7 games. You get about 3 IFPA points for a win.

 

He wants to leave the format as close as he can to what it currently is, as he thinks if there is the player vs player matchplay element it will scare away too many new players. Unfortunately with the way the new system works I think there will need to be a head to head option for the tournaments to be counted. My idea was to play each Wednesday and then on the final Thursday of the month have the playoffs. Players can be ranked on their 28 games played over the month and then have the PAPA style elimination tournament. So players 13-14-15-16 play a game and the bottom 2 drop out. 11&12 come in and it continues down until the last 4 players are left. Best of 3 for them.

 

Would this be a reasonable way to run the comps next year? It rewards players who do well over the course of the month, but also allows the 16th ranked player to make it through to the finals.

 

What do you think @hutch, @DOG, @specialharmony, @1.21 Gigawatts, @Greg Mcmahon

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I think the opposite about matchplay. We've talked about it before but I think that match play actually encoruges lower skilled players, as long as they get matched up with other lower skilled players.

 

When you are ranked by score in a group of 15-30 people, low skill players will always be at the bottom. At least in match play they have a chance to get some success because a good player might have a bad game, or when they are matched against other low skill players they have a chance to win.

 

I think that low skill players are going to get the most enjoyment when they get a fair amount of chances (because no one gets better by not playing) and if there is a balance where they get match with players of equal skill.

 

In the Parramatta league there is a clear skill gap between the pinhead regulars and the pub regulars. But the pub regulars still have a heap of fun. They get knocked down to the loser bracket and then get to play eachother. It's amost like they have a little comp within themselves to see who can do the best.

 

Perhaps the thing that is really going to scare off new players at coogee is the ratio of low skill players to high skill players. If their aren't any other low skill players then those people are just gonna get trashed.

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Pinball HQ Coogee 2016

 

I think the opposite about matchplay. We've talked about it before but I think that match play actually encoruges lower skilled players, as long as they get matched up with other lower skilled players.

 

When you are ranked by score in a group of 15-30 people, low skill players will always be at the bottom. At least in match play they have a chance to get some success because a good player might have a bad game, or when they are matched against other low skill players they have a chance to win.

 

I think that low skill players are going to get the most enjoyment when they get a fair amount of chances (because no one gets better by not playing) and if there is a balance where they get match with players of equal skill.

 

In the Parramatta league there is a clear skill gap between the pinhead regulars and the pub regulars. But the pub regulars still have a heap of fun. They get knocked down to the loser bracket and then get to play eachother. It's amost like they have a little comp within themselves to see who can do the best.

 

Perhaps the thing that is really going to scare off new players at coogee is the ratio of low skill players to high skill players. If their aren't any other low skill players then those people are just gonna get trashed.

 

I think I am a low skilled pub thrasher then, haven't had a good result at magic hands yet

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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Another idea I had to encorage new players was a rookie award.

 

Maybe he can do something like that.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

I think I am a pub thrasher then, haven't had a good result at magic hands yet

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

As long as you are having fun Paul! Thats the most important thing. haha

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I think Norbert just wants to have it so that everyone can play their 7 games each time. So everyone gets to play the same amount of games. Not just the more skilled players knocking them out after a couple of games. I guess his idea is to keep it similar to how it is now, and then only the people who are interested in IFPA points etc come in on the Thursday night for the Finals?

 

Not sure how that would affect scores submitted to IFPA or even if its allowed at the moment.

 

Do you think you will change your system for Magic Hands next year @jagojp?

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I think Norbert just wants to have it so that everyone can play their 7 games each time. So everyone gets to play the same amount of games. Not just the more skilled players knocking them out after a couple of games. I guess his idea is to keep it similar to how it is now, and then only the people who are interested in IFPA points etc come in on the Thursday night for the Finals?

 

Not sure how that would affect scores submitted to IFPA or even if its allowed at the moment.

 

Do you think you will change your system for Magic Hands next year @jagojp?

 

Actually yea that does make sense. Everyone getting their 7 games in is probably a good idea. My system was designed with having only 2 games available haha. Have like 13 machines on site changes things haha.

 

To be honest I haven't thought about next year at all. I'm really at the pointy end of my study and I haven't even looked at how the changes for 2016 work. I think I will always keep it as match play.

 

I prefer the compeditive style of match play. Sometimes when you just go and play your games it can be a bit routine. Or you can play in a group of 4, beat your mates, win your game but then it doesn't mean anything cos on the board you are in the middle.

 

I gave up on the idea of the Magic hands comp being worth IFPA points though, so ifpa rule changes will not really make a difference. (unless they suddenly make it worth points) haha

But I don't disagree that it shouldn't be worth points cos its only a small competition.

 

The real problem is actually getting people to commit to come along to every event. If I could get 15 people to say "yes ill be there every time" over the 6 nights then it could be worth a decent amount (maybe 15ish points). But because people cant commit it means that it has to be submitted as 6 events rather than 1 league.

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Pat I'm not up to speed on the match play thing so I can't really give an opinion. The Weds are a bit hard going sometimes when one has been busy at work all day, and have to get up early the next day. I take my hat off to those who drive a long way to play every week .

 

I know I'd like to see more of the bigger tournaments where people come from others parts of Sydney. Just like I stopped going to Zball on Tuesdays when I moved east, the Zball guys and others further west just can't get to Coogee on Wednesday night. It would be great if once a month on a Sat or Sun arvo if there was some sort of tournament series separate to the wed nights. That way more folks would possibly turn up. The format could be completely different to Wed. Maybe ditch the thurs night for this weekend comp. We wouldn't want it to clash with Zball special events and crawls or the Lord Raglan etc. or maybe people have found their respective "pinball homes" now and growth is limited - there's enough pinball in the city and surrounds to not warrant the travel. Diggers didn't really get many more regular players this year unfortunately.

 

 

[emoji298]️

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@nich2pat , your idea sounds solid and suitable to Norbert. You would easily max out your TGP at 100% (it maxes out at 25 games), and you would satisfy the 'direct play' component required for IFPA endorsement next year by having playoffs. Your points would be whatever your base points + ratings strength + rankings strength is. My estimate based on your Coogee Diggers tournaments before TGP adjustment, each monthly tournament result should be worth 15-20 WPPR points for a first place.

 

One thing though, I would make it 8 finalists instead of 16, because you must eliminate at least 50% of the field in finals for your qualifying games to count as meaningful games. If you didn't get 32 players over the course of a month, it means you would have a poor TGP rather than the 100% you would otherwise have. Besides that, 8 is a more realistic number of competitive type players interested in playing playoffs anyway I think.

 

Cheers

Jack

Edited by hutch
clearer language
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Never!! I love the M.Hands format with the double elim and match play. I'm not sure how it will work if the player base keeps expanding though...

 

I also like the format. One thing I was thinking was to award 2 points for each win in the winners bracket and 1 point for each win in the losers bracket? Just because the other week when I won it - I got 9 points, @jagojp managed to win it with 11 points (if that makes sense)

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Pinball HQ Coogee 2016

 

If you have more than half the field make the finals the 28 games of qualifying will not count.keep that in mind.

 

If 32 players turn up over the course of a month the finals must have at least 16 players? Norbert told me you must have at least 50% in the finals

I don't think 16 would turn up on the Thursday finals night. Does this mean it would have to be abandoned?

 

 

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No I think it just means that if we get an average of 16 people for the month we cant have more than 8 people for the finals... is that right? If we only got 16 people and they were all put into the finals it wouldnt be worth anything. I dont think its at LEAST 50%, I think that is the maximum allowed.

 

I think I would be trusting @hutch and @Brett2280 more than Norbert. He couldnt understand that drawing a number out of a hat was random... Can you explain that again Jack?

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No I think it just means that if we get an average of 16 people for the month we cant have more than 8 people for the finals... is that right? If we only got 16 people and they were all put into the finals it wouldnt be worth anything. I dont think its at LEAST 50%, I think that is the maximum allowed.

 

I think I would be trusting @hutch and @Brett2280 more than Norbert. He couldnt understand that drawing a number out of a hat was random... Can you explain that again Jack?

 

You have to eliminate at least 50% of the field for the qualifying games to count as a meaningful game. If there were 15 players who played in a tournament and 8 qualified for finals, none of the qualifying games would count, whereas if there was a tournament with 40 players and 8 qualified for finals, the qualifying games would count. Haha that was a funny conversation about the numbers in the hat though.

 

Taken from IFPA website (http://www.ifpapinball.com/menu/ranking-info):

 

LIMITED QUALIFYING ATTEMPTS

The TGP for events that include a qualifying portion with a set amount of attempts, or limited amount of attempts will add an additional 4% to the total TGP for each meaningful game played. A meaningful game is based on the data used to advance a player through the qualifying process. For example, if a player is limited to 30 attempts on a machine, and the tournament is taking the highest score on a machine to advance to the finals, this would count as 1 meaningful game played (not 30). The games played in the qualifying portion of the tournament can be added to the TGP calculation only if that qualifying portion reduces the field of participants by 50% or more. For tournaments where less than 50% of the field is removed in the qualifying process, the IFPA considers this 'seeding' and will not increase the TGP.

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I love standing back and watching jack and norbert argue about how to run a final.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Haha there was no arguing DOG, was just trying to explain that whether or not we all dip our hands into the hat at the same time, or if we grab an unseen bit of paper one by one until the last person grabs the last bit of unseen bit of paper, the process is still 100% random.

 

Also originally it wasn't even going to be drawn out of a hat, it was going to be by seeding, but anyway it didn't take away anything from a great day!

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I see a lot of comps just abandoning IFPA. To make an Australian competition count towards anything meaningful, the format has to be structured in such a way, two thirds of the players don't even understand it, let alone the organisers. ZBall has given up I believe (they had their largest competition this year which was one of the most fun I have ever been involved in, and it was deemed not valid for IFPA on submission after it was granted IFPA status at the start). I believe Magic Hands is giving up, Norbert will likely run something which is deemed not valid. I wouldn't be surprised to see Wildball go it there own next year too. Terry's fantastic pingolf comp this year won't be a valid submission for next... I mean the list goes on.

 

Add on to that the laborious process of even getting IFPA approval...

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Hey Guys,

After reading your comments, I don't have a solution either. Although I like your idea Pat that you have elimination of the top 16 while 2 drop out and so on. But as Dog said would you get all 16 there on a Thursday highly unlikely. As far as IFPA points go I have never been able to work that out too complicated. I will try and come up with some solution let you know next week. Im sure someone will come up with something that's going to work.

 

Just off the subject for a sec, Norbert was talking last night about playing the Walking Dead final over 2 - 3 Wednesday nights including normal comp night as well for the month of December.

Whats your thoughts, I think its better than having that Marathon format he was original talking about.

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I also like the format. One thing I was thinking was to award 2 points for each win in the winners bracket and 1 point for each win in the losers bracket? Just because the other week when I won it - I got 9 points, @jagojp managed to win it with 11 points (if that makes sense)

Yea. I'd prefer if that sort of thing didnt happen. changing the point values is a good suggestion. The only thing that concerns me with that idea is that i dont want to create too big of a discrepancy between the winners and losers in points. The bigger the gap the harder it is the catch up.

It should be that someone who performs over average in the field consistently is at the top of the table overall.

One way it could possibly work is if we double all the values and make a winning game in the loser bracket somewhere in between. Eg. A win in the winners bracket is worth 4 and a win in the losers bracket is worth 3.

If we did it this way you would have had 4 wins x4 + 1st place (6points) and extra chance bonus (4 points). Total 30

I'd have got 7 wins x 3 +2nd (4) + extra chance bonus (4) for a total of 29.

 

Might just work.

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But then I guess once you start awarding more points it's going to be even more of a gap between first and someone who doesn't win a game all night... Oh well winning some Henson dollars was a better reward than a couple of ifpa points. Whoever is there next time I'll buy some beers for. Grifter Brewing Co only!
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