Jump to content
Due to a large amount of spamers, accounts will now have to be approved by the Admins so please be patient. ×
  • 0
IGNORED

PC Controller Boards.


David_AVD

Question

Recommended Posts

  • 0

Well a lot of the technobabble is over my head but I think Nuggy has a solution based on something no longer available, or not readily available anyway...

 

I think what the community needs (and there'd be a market in the US too I reckon) is an affordable output controller that isn't a once off.

 

It needs to:

  • Have plenty of outputs (I suggested 50)
  • Be controllable by PC software (obviously)
  • Interface with the PC through some common interface like LPT, USB etc
  • Not suffer lag/delays
  • Either provide 5v per channel like a LEDWIZ or maybe 12v for lights... but then I reckon an actual LEDWIZ is fine for lighting.
  • The main output it needs to control is to trigger pinball parts like flippers and bumpers, that work at all kinds of DC voltages as I understand it... with my very limited knowledge of electronics this is why I thought it'd need a SS relay on each circuit that would allow the 5v output to switch the relay and allow power to pass to the component... I'm sure you've got a better idea though...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0
Well a lot of the technobabble is over my head but I think Nuggy has a solution based on something no longer available, or not readily available anyway...

 

I think what the community needs (and there'd be a market in the US too I reckon) is an affordable output controller that isn't a once off.

 

It needs to:

  • Have plenty of outputs (I suggested 50)
  • Be controllable by PC software (obviously)
  • Interface with the PC through some common interface like LPT, USB etc
  • Not suffer lag/delays
  • Either provide 5v per channel like a LEDWIZ or maybe 12v for lights... but then I reckon an actual LEDWIZ is fine for lighting.
  • The main output it needs to control is to trigger pinball parts like flippers and bumpers, that work at all kinds of DC voltages as I understand it... with my very limited knowledge of electronics this is why I thought it'd need a SS relay on each circuit that would allow the 5v output to switch the relay and allow power to pass to the component... I'm sure you've got a better idea though...

 

That is something I'd like to get my teeth into.... (have been thinking about a similar sort of a control project for a while...)

 

With regards to the SS Relays, wow, they are an expensive way to go! I would think that going with the pinball style design of using mosfets (a particular type of transistor) would be an easier way to go, and considerably cheaper.

 

Anyway, several people have shown interest in a controller... and I am thinking about making one, but for a different purpose (I'm wanting to make an arcade sign with carnival style lighting) - but it would not be too hard to make it a more universal board. Perhaps it is the kick in the butt to get started...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0

Ok,

 

Please excuse any ignorant comments in advance, because I'm not yet fully familiar with the inner details of a pinball, aside from some early model EMs.

 

OK, now that we're in the new thread, what sort of things do you want to drive? Coils, lamps, what else?

 

First a stupid question, what exactly is a coil, is that the same thing as a solanoid? Because obviously there are a lot of solanoids in a pinball, such as the ball traps, ball returns, and (at least on EMs) the pop bumpers etc.

 

Since the most likely way to build a pinball would be to use real pinball parts, they're going to run at reasonably high voltages... and I think those voltages vary so the output controller needs to be able to run a variety of pinball parts (or at least close the circuit from a direct power source).

 

All of the sounds and videos I think would be run directly from the PC onto an LCD or DMD, and wouldn't be part of this output controllers scope.

 

For the lighting, I think you could use either 5v or 12v lamps or LEDs. It'd be great if this controller could do these too, but its not a big deal if it cant because (I think) a standard off the shelf LEDWIZ would be sufficient for the lighting.

 

I'm gathering from the various responses that SS relays aren't the way to go, and I'm sure you guys have a better idea.. .but the general idea is to not make the output controller limited to only certain devices, as people might want to run motors, toys etc that run at various voltages... this is why each circuit should just be able to quickly close or open the circuit, not provide the power ... which would be the responsibility of us (the builders) to supply the appropriate power for the device.

 

I hope I'm making some sense.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0

If the output board uses open collector outputs (switches the negative leg of each coil (solenoid), etc) then you could have various voltage things hanging off it with no problems at all. Each group of things that needed a different voltage would have its own power supply feed. This part of the design is fairly easy.

 

The tricky part is how you want the PC to talk to the controller board. I have no experience in PC pinnies, etc. I have made boards that are controlled by serial and USB (via serial) ports but don't know how fast is fast enough for pinball.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0
If the output board uses open collector outputs (switches the negative leg of each coil (solenoid), etc) then you could have various voltage things hanging off it with no problems at all. Each group of things that needed a different voltage would have its own power supply feed. This part of the design is fairly easy.

 

The tricky part is how you want the PC to talk to the controller board. I have no experience in PC pinnies, etc. I have made boards that are controlled by serial and USB (via serial) ports but don't know how fast is fast enough for pinball.

 

There is a pretty fantastic PPT controlled and expandable system designed for operating christmas lights, fairly in-expensive and high response times apparntly.. could be suitable or adaptable perhaps..

 

http://computerchristmas.com/christmas/link-how_to/HowToId-4/How_To_Build_A_Parallel_Port_Controller_Box

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0

Thats a good question but I fear there's no scientific answer and there could be a lot of debate about it :)

 

For a home made pinball, at least for first pass, I'd be suprised if serial/usb/parallel would be noticably slow... I think the only things that need to be super fast reaction times would be flippers and bumpers... whereas you're not going to notice a big difference in lights or motors (toys) or ball returns etc would you?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0

Don't flippers and bumpers just react directly to the buttons & switches anyway? Is there a reason you'd have the PC intercepting those functions?

 

So is it a case of there's no circuit designs out there, or that there are circuits but no-one to design & make the PCB's?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0
Well a lot of the technobabble is over my head but I think Nuggy has a solution based on something no longer available, or not readily available anyway...

 

Nuggy's solution is a software one. The driver board is not an issue. The output driver board used in Coconut Island is certainly an NLA part, we grabbed the last two units. But is was flawed in design (easily overcome though so still fine for the first couple of games). But is is not rocket science - redesigning and producing a better board along the lines of the NLA one isn't hard. We've got quotes and even an electronics engineer in the "family"...

 

PC* + IPAC** + NPC*** + NOC**** = anyone can do it! :)

 

 

Watch this space! http://www.users.on.net/~spaners/Coconut%20Island/index.html

 

 

*Personal computer P2 is all

** Commercially available input controller

*** Nuggy Pinball Controller - software

**** Nuggy Output Contoller

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0
Don't flippers and bumpers just react directly to the buttons & switches anyway? Is there a reason you'd have the PC intercepting those functions?

 

So is it a case of there's no circuit designs out there, or that there are circuits but no-one to design & make the PCB's?

 

I think you could get away with the flippers being connected directly to the buttons, however isn't it feasible to want a rule/piece of code in your pinball software to want to know if the flipper was pressed or not?

 

With bumpers though, you might be able to 'rig' something that reacts directly to the input (ie there's an input through the ipac to register the score of hitting a bumper, you could also get that to close the circuit and fire the solanoid to 'activate' the bumper

 

As an aside, how many volts/amps can you run through a cherry microswitch?

 

Edit: I just remembered why you need the PC to control the flippers/bumpers: TILT. When the machine is tilted you want to deactivate everything and let the ball drain.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0
I took a look but couldn't see the NLA board you speak of. Go any pictures of it?

 

It's not there. The technical side has not been the focus of the site which deals more with the updates and construction. You'll hopefully see quite a bit more technical information published shortly.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0

You could still have the PC just monitor the flippers and bumpers. For the tilt feature, have an inhibit signal from the PC to disable them. Best of both worlds that way.

To expand on this:

                           ------> Signal to PC
                          |
Flipper Switch --> Driver Board --> Flipper Solenoid
                          |
Inhibit from PC >----------

 

It's not there. The technical side has not been the focus of the site which deals more with the updates and construction. You'll hopefully see quite a bit more technical information published shortly.

 

Mention was made of some design mistakes. Can you elaborate?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0
See this is why I asked you to think about this - you know stuff. :)

 

I know SFA about pinnies, but the basic principles of electronics still apply so I'm getting my head around what makes them tick.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0

the pinmame hw board is NLA, but i can knock up a new one which is heaps better, in terms of reliability and also features.

must have been dreaming but any way ill recap what i can and cant do.

 

output baord:

128 total outputs

25 hi current (6A) drivers for coils etc

7 FLASh lamp drivers you know the #89 etc

96 gp lamp matrix outputs- yep 96 lights or devices like a pc fan for example.

 

NPC software:

60 switch blocks that all have internal handling of themselves with respect to output control. ie if i want the lamp to flash the switch module takes care of this.

20 mode slots including mode0 which is when you hit the start button.

combos upto 3 stacks deep

small chunks of prewrtitten code to do things like manage multiball extra ball tilt, wait states between losing a multiball but not all of them...situations etc

TOY interface which can drive servos or 2X 7 segment displays this is an RS232 comm.

all handling of generic game functions built into the kernal, like loading the trough and stuck ball handling etc.

i detect if the flipper button is held and appropriate display response etc! lane change etc

5 level deep stack for messages and small "shows" i can demand some thing be displayed at any time as well, like a spinner getting hammered for example.

unlimited preset lamp sequences for attract mode and also during game light shows like a left 2 right lamp sweep or just a small extra ball show, in reality u only use about 10 of these in a game situation

multiball can handle up to 4 balls in play.

only 1 player at this stage but thats easy fixed/implemented later.

ihave to run, got a priority job, ill finish this later.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0

Fantastic Nuggy...

 

I appologise if it sounds like I've been implying you don't have a solution, I've just been under the impression that the hardware piece of your output solution was no longer available and/or was propriatary to your software.

 

The features of your interface sounds bloody excellent... the big question is, how easily can you 'mass produce' these and how much would members of the forum be looking at to buy one? I'm certainly interested....

 

The only thing I'd be nervous about (back to my propriatary comment) that it sounds like all of these 'smarts' in the output controller itself would make it harder to code without an intimate knowledge of the board... I guess in my oversimplified mind I had thought that if I wanted to activate 'component x' I'd know thats on channel y and the software side would simply say 'close circuit channel y' for z seconds.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0
the pinmame hw board is NLA, but i can knock up a new one which is heaps better, in terms of reliability and also features.

must have been dreaming but any way ill recap what i can and cant do.

 

output baord:

128 total outputs

25 hi current (6A) drivers for coils etc

7 FLASh lamp drivers you know the #89 etc

96 gp lamp matrix outputs- yep 96 lights or devices like a pc fan for example.

 

 

Hey Nuggy,

 

NPC sounds like that really is on the move. Your output board - I have some interest in...

 

How does it communicate with NPC? Have you developed a specific protocol, or does it 'bit bang' the controller? Is it via serial, or USB (serial conversion), USB native or use the LPT? (or even, I guess a PCI interface?)

 

The reason I ask is because I have been thinking about how best to do it, and am keen to see what works for you.

My current thinking of what'd work is that a high speed serial interface given the right 'protocols' would be sufficient, using a usb->serial (like the FTDI chips) and some low-level 'smarts' (like an Atmega controller) in the control board (this controller would handle the protocols, and perform housekeeping duties etc to keep the 'reaction speed' up, handle the contact/release status for switches, and perform priority stacking of switch events).

The 'high speed' devices like flippers and bumpers could be directly reactive (not switched by the host computer) but register hits with the interface board (like what was used on earlier SS pinballs), but still able to be enabled and diasabled (ie tilts, end of game).

 

For me, I'm ready to admit that this is all armchair stuff at the moment. I hadn't gone past the high current control stage - switch and light matrixing were next (and a tougher concept :))

 

Anyway, I'd better shut up now :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0
It sounds like Nuggy has this one sorted so I'll drop into the background for now.

 

Sure does...

 

Now I want to know how it works:)

 

(and when will the coconut island kit be available ;))

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0

drive via LPT1, lamps can be individually updated at 17mhz if required. couple of standard commands within the npc software like alloff and lmpoff so i can sort of do lots with very little.

 

many different matrix lamp flash rates and flasher duty cycles all built in.

on the fly debounce adjustment for all switches(and differences for a rollover VS a standup VS a ramp entry VS a spinner (virtually no debounce!)

 

sound system comprises midi music interface for up to 20 tunes (expandable) (mp3 being played with but will probably need P3)

 

256 (next version has 512!)sound effects slots are up to 10 concurrent wave type file triggers (thats a lot of simultaneous effects my friends!)

i can select overwrite or not as each sound is called (default is overwrite)

256 quote type calls slots also to be expanded.

 

All sound effects/ music files are preloaded at startup, the hard drive does not get accessed once in attract mode. except for npccfg file update based on settings changes or hi score table save when is reached.

 

DMD back buffer display engine is starting to come together( not finished, bit of a rewrite!!!). i know how to do it, just want to make it really easy to line up .dot (proprietry) images for animation cycles and be able to mask the text/numeric on top of this surface. animate the text strings etc

 

there heaps of other shit 2 like various pauses available while still updateing entire output matrix and display engine still running (looks seamless!) multiball wind up shows are implemented like this for example, or just a bit of a delay to a kickout or drop target reset.

 

then of course the choreography engine which puts all these above bits together.

 

lots want to play coconut island- having a ball (!) last night ...actually couple of double jackpots !!!

 

BEST bit, its piss easy to rewrite for other themes (switch blocks!)

 

questions gentlemen...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0

I hope you don't mind my constant stupid questions but rest assured, I do learn fast... especially when I actually get my hands dirty.

 

As I understand it, you've got an output controller AND you've got this 'NPC', which I don't know what it stands for but it sounds like it replaces what I had been intending to do with a PC, ie it stores the rules, the sounds, etc etc.

 

So, considering I'm (strongly) partial to using a PC so that I can do some direct sound/video/etc output to an LCD, plus a few other little (secret) tricks, does that mean your output controller would still be suitable for use with a PC, leaving out this NPC you're using?

 

Or have I got it completely mixed up?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0

npc =nuggys pinball controller !

this is the VB software that does everything.

 

the output board is dumb the PC does all the work.

 

:D

 

the output board is easily interfaced 2 by anything

 

coconut island has just one PC, it is all you need, output timing control is the important/critical aspect.

2 or more PC,s = a rats nest of PSU and interconnect etc, where are you going to put them all (dont say a stand along cabinet !!!) other wise it would be called...."piniac" hope someone gets that one !!! :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0
npc =nuggys pinball controller !

 

the output board is dumb the PC does all the work.

 

:D

 

to clarify for ya:

 

NPC = the name of the software running on the PC

 

Which does all the smart stuff. Output board does what it is told to do by the NPC software, and has no smarts...

 

(right nuggy?)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...