PDA

View Full Version : gottlieb lawman 2 player em 1971



illawarra_steelers
9th June 2016, 08:01 PM
why do we do this? why does this never stop?

little background, even though i had 2 full rebuilds and full restores from the ground up on 2x 1960's gottliebs put the feelers out for a project and got a bite.

Benpinposted that he had a gottlieb lawman from 1971 that was available..and over about 4 weeks worth of pm and sms we settled on a deal (while i was away on a tiny island in the middle of the indian ocean) and put this officially in the queue tonight after being delivered by prowler (as always).

so this game is a major project but sometimes old (grail) games just scream out to be saved and this one did that..

this is what got my attention and got me hooked, a really nice original playfield.

backglass is hammered, no worries will buy backglass resto to send a new one with a current order..so will sell this one cheap for somebodies wall in their gamesroom http://bgresto.com/

you can see what i'm up against but cab will be stripped and fully rebuilt and resprayed..all the front will be replaced with new

plastics are okay and the main one has a bit missing and a crack but pinball rescue have them in their never ending production line of repro plastics

this sticker gives some of the history up and will be left on the game (sorry image wouldn't rotate)..so it was originally owned by hankin in newcastle (did they import new or second hand?) and made it to victoria where it has been for at least 20 years.

has hard to find original parts such as the original lockdown bar (many times replaced by the wider version from later), the metal flipper buttons which weren't used on a heap of gottlieb games from this period..though is missing the chimes <_<

so what happens now? she is officially in the queue..i have bought another project off tony turner from the Pinball Shed from this stash
http://www.aussiearcade.com/showthread.php/80616-Another-large-shipment-of-em-pinballs-arriving-soon-10

will have to wait and see what it is :cool: have to say if you're looking for a project wait until the rest start to become available, there are many games that simply are never available in australia and very clean titles..

will start to gather parts like a squirrel and have started to add some parts for this on my next pinball resource order.

Rob1966
9th June 2016, 08:19 PM
Jealous must do another one soon myself


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Pinball Warehouse
9th June 2016, 10:54 PM
Tony, your an amazing man. Your passion for these old pinballs is truly heartwarming. I admire anyone that spents quality time on restoring these older games, you become easily attached when you get them running and working 100%

I have spent most of the week working on a Fashion Show, Happy Clown and College Queen. What a great feeling trying to play these games with the small flippers and giant gap, it takes a very good player to master these old girls.

I hope to get a heap of them sorted out and sold off to new owners in the coming weeks and months.

This much love needs to be shared around.

BIG Trev
10th June 2016, 06:56 AM
Great to hear there's someone with more projects than me. It's good to see the Hankin label and I think you're right to keep it, there's a bit of Aussie history right there.
Keep up the excellent work Tony.
Cheers Trev

prowler
10th June 2016, 07:18 AM
Its definitely screaming Tony

furballx
10th June 2016, 06:16 PM
mmmmmmmmmmmm, 10 drop target bank.........special!

Nick64
10th June 2016, 09:46 PM
That playfield does look in good nick , love the line of horse shoe drop targets . Tony you will no doubt bring her back to life i remember this game down the local milk bar i was in grade 2 or 3 ..:)

RMacauley
10th June 2016, 09:53 PM
Lawman.

The pin that got me hooked on pinball as a kid. Not the first pin I ever played but the first one I played on a semi regular basis and could remember a bit about years later. Played it in a small take away/ mini mart (for want of a better term) opposite my first school in Canungra Queensland from about 1976 through until we moved in mid 1979. They eventually got a second pin that I don't remember anything about but Lawman never left during my early school years.

I could remember the stagecoach on the backglass and trying to keep the gate open on the right outlane. I was talking to my Dad one night about it and he remembered the row of drops down the left. Mentioned this to a collector I knew at the time and he picked it straight away. The next time I was there he had his Lawman set up and I got to play it for the first time in 20 years.

Anyway that's enough of my rambling :D

angs1957
10th June 2016, 10:47 PM
This will be an interesting build to follow :D

illawarra_steelers
21st June 2016, 07:46 PM
in between waiting for 2 more games to arrive this week and the next pinball resource order i'm kinda in limbo..so thought i'd start taking apart the playfield..flipped it over and my eyes nearly fell out of my head :lol

what is really amazing is there is no evidence on the top of the playfield, no paint loss or cracking :unsure

JOKERPOKER
21st June 2016, 09:26 PM
:o:o wow that looks cooked. It's amazing how much punishment these old games can take before Thay gave up.....but not without a fight though.

goodolddays
23rd June 2016, 03:44 PM
Yikes :o

illawarra_steelers
24th June 2016, 11:09 AM
lee confirmed this morning that repro plastics for sheriff and lawman and now in production

http://www.pinballrescue.net/

Gemini2544
24th June 2016, 06:04 PM
I love the playfield layout, It will be a challenging game to play once itīs restored to 100%.

illawarra_steelers
7th August 2016, 05:45 PM
while the weather is still not conducive for painting starting pulling down the playfield today..i'm sure everybody that restores games often looks at the heap of junk infront of them
and wonder why did i buy this? well that ran through my head so many times..also not having the chimes inside the game, when i was told they were doesn't put a smile on my face
as they are tough to find :x

thankfully the playfield looks as though it has mylar applied since day 1 but doubt it has been cleaned since.

pulled up part of the fake wooden mylar and there is a contrast where it originally was so will have to remove just the top layer of mylar just above the rollovers

steve from backglass repro emailed yesterday to say he has just finished my repro glass, so she is coming along slowly.
http://bgresto.com/?p=123

em_pins
8th August 2016, 06:02 AM
Looks to be a great game Tony. I enjoy watching these threads and seeing your machines come back to life ! Looking at the IPDB the cabinet art looks fairly easy to replicate for repaint or stencil.

illawarra_steelers
11th September 2016, 08:10 PM
even though it's about 6 games down the line for restoration, sneak an hour in every week..playfield stripped, pinball rescue plastics arrived http://www.pinballrescue.net/Plastics_Sheriff.html

illawarra_steelers
4th November 2016, 02:29 PM
another small step..new pinball rescue plastics just arrived..though just gathering parts on this game for now.

100770

illawarra_steelers
23rd January 2017, 06:51 PM
repro backglass arrived today..game and backglass into storage as i'm out of room (again) <_<

illawarra_steelers
4th February 2017, 11:35 AM
sold and now headed to the sutherland shire for a full restoration :)

..and kept in the aa family.

thejudge
4th February 2017, 04:02 PM
Thanks Tony, all tucked away in the garage for now :) and I have decided to do this one next.

I have already sourced and bought the missing chime unit so the pin should be pretty much complete.

It's going to be the hardest ones that I've done to date mechanically wise, but at least I don't have to worry about fixing up the playfield and the backglass.
That backglass is very nice up close, never had a new one before :)

Thanks again :D

Autosteve
4th February 2017, 07:37 PM
repro backglass arrived today..game and backglass into storage as i'm out of room (again) <_<



I have a half empty 20 foot shipping container on the farm sitting about 120Kms south west of you. Please don't do anything hasty with these gems when it is sitting there.

thejudge
22nd February 2017, 03:04 PM
Hey Tony illawarra_steelers, I hope you don't mind but i thought I would take over this thread and continue updates on the restoration (saves me starting a new one and repeating the history).

After I unloaded the cabinet from the car, the bottom basically fell out and the wood all round was in poor condition. I knew this was the case before purchasing and it is salvageable, but Tony gave me a lead on a replacement which I followed up. I contacted Milo Thasaman, who is a very nice man :) , and he sold me a spare cabinet he had for next to nothing. The cabinet is ten times better than the one I have and will save me a lot of work and is very much appreciated.

I have also replaced the missing chime unit and have the playfield up on the rotisserie ready for work.
There are going to be a few challenges ahead for me in areas that I haven't work on before but thats how you learn :D

I'm going on holiday for a few weeks so there won't be any updates for awhile but just thought I would give a heads up to where I am at.

thejudge
21st April 2017, 02:09 PM
I have now started on this project after a bit of a break and finally finishing off my Joker Poker.

I have finished removing the remaining bits and pieces from the playfield, and after giving it a quick clean, it looks like this.

http://i345.photobucket.com/albums/p375/tjudge1959/Lawman/2017-04-21%2010.43.45_zpswystoh3m.jpg

There is fading of the colours, even though its under mylar, and this is evident around the pop bumpers. Not much I can do about it and hopefully it won't be that noticeable once the pop bump are put back on. Might need a coloured mylar ring around them hide the fading.

There are a few areas of concern, the first being the area around the posts. As can be seen here, there is wear in a larger area than is covered by the posts themselves. I don't have the original posts but it looks like they might have had a larger base than the repro ones? not sure.

http://i345.photobucket.com/albums/p375/tjudge1959/Lawman/2017-04-21%2011.09.41_zpsnt9pmf2y.jpg

http://i345.photobucket.com/albums/p375/tjudge1959/Lawman/2017-04-21%2011.10.24_zps7tyi0khi.jpg

http://i345.photobucket.com/albums/p375/tjudge1959/Lawman/2017-04-21%2010.44.11_zps2rcxa1lf.jpg

This wear has happened for every post. I think painting it would look a bit tacky, so I might cover with a white mylar ring or something similar, have to think of the best way around it.

The second area of concern is this baby which you might remember from Tony's pics.

http://i345.photobucket.com/albums/p375/tjudge1959/Lawman/2017-04-21%2010.55.32_zpsrf9y6q3d.jpg

I have removed a few mechs to fully view the extent of the issue. The burn wood is not a problem but the charring of the inserts is :(

Shining a light from behind shows that the 3, 4, 5 & 6 thousand inserts are buggered. 7 is passable.

http://i345.photobucket.com/albums/p375/tjudge1959/Lawman/2017-04-21%2011.14.04_zpstmlhojpw.jpg

These will have to be replaced, which will mean removing the mylar from the top, removing the inserts, inserting new inserts with recreated decals. Haven't had to do this before so I will have to do a bit of research to make sure to limit the affect on the playfield. Since I won't be clear coating the PF, they will have to be a flat as possible.

I have also started on the replacement cabinet, the overall cab is sturdy, just gluing together a few cracks here and there.

A long way to go.

Rob1966
21st April 2017, 04:34 PM
Sounds like quite a big job to remove the Mylar and take out the inserts to replace them, I'm not sure how bad the or how deep the charring goes but I was just thinking if it's not to deeply burnt in you may be able to use a cordless drill with spade bit the right size with the locating tip ground of and very carefully just take the burnt layer of thus making it able to let the light come through again, that is as long as it's not burnt in to deep even a bit of dowel with some cutting compound in the drill might work.
Just a thought anyway


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

thejudge
21st April 2017, 04:49 PM
Sounds like quite a big job to remove the Mylar and take out the inserts to replace them, I'm not sure how bad the or how deep the charring goes but I was just thinking if it's not to deeply burnt in you may be able to use a cordless drill with spade bit the right size with the locating tip ground of and very carefully just take the burnt layer of thus making it able to let the light come through again, that is as long as it's not burnt in to deep even a bit of dowel with some cutting compound in the drill might work.
Just a thought anyway

Thanks for the idea and that might work for some of the inserts, but on others the charring is too deep.
As you can see in the last picture, the insert has completely melted and the hole goes all the way through for the 4 & 5 thousand point inserts.

Note, I would only cut out the mylar around the insert, similar to how it is for the rollovers next to the 7,000 point insert. I might even be able to cut a flap and stick it back down again, not sure yet?

Rob1966
22nd April 2017, 09:57 AM
Thanks for the idea and that might work for some of the inserts, but on others the charring is too deep.
As you can see in the last picture, the insert has completely melted and the hole goes all the way through for the 4 & 5 thousand point inserts.

Note, I would only cut out the mylar around the insert, similar to how it is for the rollovers next to the 7,000 point insert. I might even be able to cut a flap and stick it back down again, not sure yet?

Yeah if the charring is too deep probably be no good for those ones, but I would definatly give the others a go if if saves you some trouble.
Good luck with it either way it looks like such a great machine.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Autosteve
22nd April 2017, 10:39 AM
I'm thinking one of these Dremel tips might be worth a go before committing to removing the insert.

https://www.dremel.com/en/accessories-and-attachments/-/find-by/technique/27385/grinding-sharpening

I suspect you would have a Dremel but if you don't you can borrow my one to give the inserts a go.

The way I see it, you have nothing to loose.

thejudge
22nd April 2017, 11:58 AM
I'm thinking one of these Dremel tips might be worth a go before committing to removing the insert.
I suspect you would have a Dremel but if you don't you can borrow my one to give the inserts a go.
The way I see it, you have nothing to loose.

Thanks Autosteve, great minds think alike.
Yes I do have a dremel and that's exactly what I've just had a go at.
I found that it did remove some of the charring but then the insert would melt and char again from the heat from the dremel tip.
I lowered the speed down a bit and it worked partially but I'm not really happy with the result :(

Luckily I have an old scrap playfield that has mylar over inserts as well, so I am going to try a few different ideas on it before going any further.
Thanks for the assist guys, I'll let you know what I work out.

Autosteve
22nd April 2017, 12:24 PM
Thanks Autosteve, great minds think alike.
Yes I do have a dremel and that's exactly what I've just had a go at.
I found that it did remove some of the charring but then the insert would melt and char again from the heat from the dremel tip.
I lowered the speed down a bit and it worked partially but I'm not really happy with the result :(

Arr of course. hang on, what about one of these tips...
https://www.dremel.com/en/products/-/show-product/accessories/442-carbon-steel-brushes

I'm thinking use that tip with the playfield upside down and keep putting a drop of water in the insert hole to keep the suker cool so it won't generate heat and discolour it.

Once it gets most of the brown out, swap over to this tip...
https://www.dremel.com/en/products/-/show-product/accessories/404-nylon-bristle-brush

Now here is the trick. One drop of water with a touch of tooth paste on the brush. I have used toothpaste for polishing plastics, usually clear plastic, to remove the browning that naturally occurs with old plastic.

The toothpaste is perfect for removing scratches and browning on car headlight covers so I would imagine it will do what you want. Seeing as you have a spare playfield to practice on, it may be worth a test first before committing to removing the inserts.

thejudge
24th April 2017, 09:27 PM
Tonight I wanted to work out a solution for the wear around the posts. Because the wear marks extended out further than what the new posts cover, I thought the easiest way would be to cover them. It would be a big job to paint the affected parts and have it look any good (by me anyway). So I made some coloured plastic washers, using my circle cutter and hole punch, and gave that a try.

http://i345.photobucket.com/albums/p375/tjudge1959/Lawman/2017-04-24%2020.39.28_zps33knpogw.jpg

Before:
http://i345.photobucket.com/albums/p375/tjudge1959/Lawman/2017-04-24%2020.14.44_zps0qt3hgsm.jpg

After:
http://i345.photobucket.com/albums/p375/tjudge1959/Lawman/2017-04-24%2020.15.01_zpswrknosco.jpg

http://i345.photobucket.com/albums/p375/tjudge1959/Lawman/2017-04-24%2020.43.02_zps0zsnmgwq.jpg

Though it's not ideal I don't think it looks too bad for now.
I'll now get some other coloured plastic sheets to cover the white, red and blue post marks.

robm
24th April 2017, 09:31 PM
Fantastic idea!

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

Autosteve
24th April 2017, 11:15 PM
God Damm, I've gotta get me one of those circle cutters. I am limited to using a hole saw that always leaves the center hole to large for some applications. Where did you get that from?.

Amazing the difference those circles made to that play field. I love that idea.

That large wear paint ring is often as a result of using over sized rubbers on the posts. If you position the ball at the post, look at the ball position on the play field. It should be real close to the post at the base. Larger rings makes that ball/ playfield point out further and wear occurs.

It can also occur through loose posts which Gottliebs of this vintage are notorious for. While the broken off match stick with wood glue will repair the over sized screw hole, sometimes later model bolt and Tee nuts is the way to go.

thejudge
25th April 2017, 06:32 AM
God Damm, I've gotta get me one of those circle cutters. I am limited to using a hole saw that always leaves the center hole to large for some applications. Where did you get that from?.

I got mine from ebay, the source of everything you want but don't need :) Search for compass circle cutter and there are heaps of different types.

thejudge
25th April 2017, 10:05 AM
While the broken off match stick with wood glue will repair the over sized screw hole, sometimes later model bolt and Tee nuts is the way to go.

Yes, I had to use the match sticks and glue to fix the holes and I also used the later style bolt & tee nuts instead of the original bolt & nuts combo. Actually that can be seen in the last pic.
We seem to be thinking along the same lines :)

thejudge
25th April 2017, 11:32 AM
I finally got sick of looking at this mess so I cleaned it up today.

http://i345.photobucket.com/albums/p375/tjudge1959/Lawman/2017-04-21%2010.55.32_zpsrf9y6q3d.jpg

I scrapped of the burn wood, smoothed it out a bit and gave it a touch of paint.

http://i345.photobucket.com/albums/p375/tjudge1959/Lawman/2017-04-25%2011.06.38_zpsk6gja3dx.jpg

Luckily the removed charred wood won't affect anything.

It looks a lot better :)

Autosteve
26th April 2017, 06:42 AM
When the wood burnt did it damage the supply wires in the harness to what looks like was a coil that caused the fire?.

I've seen harnesses burnt up way before the coil actually caught fire usually as a result of a nail or 30 amp fuse being installed.

thejudge
26th April 2017, 08:36 AM
When the wood burnt did it damage the supply wires in the harness to what looks like was a coil that caused the fire?.
I've seen harnesses burnt up way before the coil actually caught fire usually as a result of a nail or 30 amp fuse being installed.

It looked like the fire was caused by the left flipper coil, based on the charring on the mounting brackets. The coil there tested fine so I can only assume that it was repaired and that the harness is alright. I have looked at the harness and can't see anything out of the ordinary.
Not sure if I can check it out now to confirm as everything is pulled apart and I wouldn't be able to plug it in. I might have to wait till i'm closer to finishing the restore.

illawarra_steelers
26th April 2017, 10:31 AM
can help with the original screws for the pfield..just let me know how many you need.

thejudge
26th April 2017, 10:48 AM
can help with the original screws for the pfield..just let me know how many you need.

Thanks for the offer Tony, but I'm using the Post Fastening Screws (GTB-A8857) instead now, less mucking around. I know it's not original but I'm bringing it into the future about 6 years (1977) to newer technology :)

thejudge
28th April 2017, 10:41 AM
First decal attempt.
I have removed all the burnt inserts by carefully cutting around them, through the mylar, with a sharp blade.
I have attempted to recreate the decals as best I could and have given it a test run. It's a bit rough around the edges as it's only a test to see how it looks.

http://i345.photobucket.com/albums/p375/tjudge1959/Lawman/2017-04-28%2010.20.29_zpsgyig37c2.jpg

Comparing to the original, my font is a little different and the writing a bit too small. I was hoping that the font was the standard Gottlieb font that I have used before i.e. Alternate Gothic No2 D, but not sure?
My black circle is also a bit small, so will have to try again.
On the plus side, the insert fits in without any noticeable lip so I might not have to cover in mylar after I finish.
Another idea might be to replace all the inserts that way they will all match, worth a thought.
I'm only using MS paint for this, can anyone advise on software which would be better to use?

goodolddays
28th April 2017, 11:09 AM
Looks great for a first attempt. Cant really see much difference from original myself

Sent from my GT-I9507 using Aussie Arcade mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=90390)

thejudge
6th May 2017, 01:29 PM
Started working on the target bank today and few questions have arisen.

Firstly, the targets I just received from PBR are horses heads and not horse shoes.

109631

109632

Does the game have different versions or have I just been given the wrong ones?

Next question is regarding the plates where the target contacts are. Most of them have a rubber stop under the metal leaf but some are missing, do I need these? They don't seem to be used in later Gottlieb target banks.

109633

On a positive note, I had a look at the bottom apron thinking that it would need to be repainted, but after a good clean it has come up OK.
Even the shooter cover, which looked really bad, came up good.

109634

And yes, I kept the Hankin sticker.

Rob1966
6th May 2017, 01:44 PM
Yeah they do look like the wrong targets definitely should be horse shoe from the ones I have seen not sure where you got them but Marco's has them
They will still do the job just depends how fussy you are
http://www.marcospecialties.com/pinball-parts/DT1906


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

illawarra_steelers
6th May 2017, 02:17 PM
those targets are for el dorado.

as rob said the targets can be used - pbr not being kind to you.

the game will be fine without those rubber stoppers.

thejudge
6th May 2017, 02:31 PM
They will still do the job just depends how fussy you are

Yeah, a little bit fussy :)


those targets are for el dorado.

Cool, now I have the targets, just need the game :)


as rob said the targets can be used - pbr not being kind to you.

Yes, a couple of times now. I have sent of an email and will wait and see what they say.
I will have to put in another order later, hopefully they will just send out the right ones then.


the game will be fine without those rubber stoppers.

I ended up just making some stoppers from rubber, should work just like the others.

109635

Autosteve
6th May 2017, 03:18 PM
I was bored and had a quick play.;)



109636

jason1
6th May 2017, 03:19 PM
Your doing a great job mate.

thejudge
14th May 2017, 10:36 AM
Second decal attempt.

http://i345.photobucket.com/albums/p375/tjudge1959/Lawman/2017-05-14%2009.18.47_zpsdfrwt4qi.jpg

I couldn't find a better font that had the zeros more compressed, so this is it. Much happier with this one.
Note, they haven't been glued in yet that's why they aren't straight.

Also, good news on the drop targets.
PBR are sending out the correct ones and they don't want the others back. So if someone needs targets for an El Dorado let me know.

Autosteve
14th May 2017, 12:36 PM
Near perfect. Don't try to make it absolutely perfect or it won't be a pinball.;)

Rob1966
14th May 2017, 05:27 PM
Second decal attempt.

http://i345.photobucket.com/albums/p375/tjudge1959/Lawman/2017-05-14%2009.18.47_zpsdfrwt4qi.jpg

I couldn't find a better font that had the zeros more compressed, so this is it. Much happier with this one.
Note, they haven't been glued in yet that's why they aren't straight.

Also, good news on the drop targets.
PBR are sending out the correct ones and they don't want the others back. So if someone needs targets for an El Dorado let me know.

Looks like a pretty good repair job to me


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

thejudge
28th May 2017, 04:47 PM
Just been working on the base board of the cabinet, I have cleaned up half, but as it was very dirty, it's taking some time.

The current setup has the original transformer on the base board and I think a step down transformer bolted to the back of the cabinet. Since I have a newer cabinet I would rather have it all on the one board if possible, unless there is a reason why not.

From the pic, you can see the original transformer which I assume is for 110v on the board. The one upper left is the one that was bolted to the back of the cabinet, which I assume is a drop down transformer. The one on the right is one that I picked up when I bought my Joker Poker and is smaller and a lot lighter.

http://i345.photobucket.com/albums/p375/tjudge1959/Lawman/2017-05-28%2015.53.15_zps8cgtmzkh.jpg

There are some marking on the stepdown transformer, Manufacturer is Transformers A&R Melbourne Australia, and it has the code 7586 (not sure on the 8, hard to read).

http://i345.photobucket.com/albums/p375/tjudge1959/Lawman/2017-05-28%2015.49.20_zpsguf2goou.jpg

Here is the newer transformer

http://i345.photobucket.com/albums/p375/tjudge1959/Lawman/2017-05-28%2015.51.51_zpsmgvabtub.jpg


As I'm not that familiar with transformers, I have a few questions:
- Can I put the current stepdown transformer on the board next to the other components?
- Will there be issues apart from the board being heavy?
- Can I use the newer transformer, is it the correct type for this application?

Just a side note, the El Dorado targets have all found new homes to AA members. I got them for free so they went out for free :)

Fire_Power
29th May 2017, 08:51 AM
Recall some clown at Wildball telling you to look for the jones plug that might switch your original transformer from 110 to 240? The same clown says look again - in your first picture, right down the bottom on towards rhs looks like a voltage selector jones plug to this clown?

Jokes aside, have a close look. I can't think what else it would be. Here's pic of the setup from one of my machines. I have seen labels showing the setup but lost in the dirt on your base board. I have seen the arrangement shown on the schematic too.

110791110791

Autosteve
29th May 2017, 09:15 AM
Yes, I thought this vintage of Gottlieb were main input voltage selectable but put it down to this Lawman being a US import and therefore just 110 volt.

I don't remember there being a Jones plug to switch it though. I thought it was a solder link between terminals 2 and 3 therefore putting the 110 windings in series.

thejudge
29th May 2017, 09:16 AM
Recall some clown at Wildball telling you to look for the jones plug that might switch your original transformer from 110 to 240? The same clown says look again - in your first picture, right down the bottom on towards rhs looks like a voltage selector jones plug to this clown?

Jokes aside, have a close look. I can't think what else it would be. Here's pic of the setup from one of my machines. I have seen labels showing the setup but lost in the dirt on your base board. I have seen the arrangement shown on the schematic too.


Thanks Bozzo :)

You're right, I cleaned off the grime and found the same labels as yours. I told you I didn't know much about transformers, but learning now.

110793

Then if it's just a matter of moving the jones plug to position 2 & 3 for 240v input, just wondering why wasn't that done before and what's the other transformer for?

Autosteve
29th May 2017, 09:26 AM
Well because the previous owner knew nothing about transformers as well I would say.:)

- - - Updated - - -

There was only one transformer and the white 240-110 transformer wasn't there?.

thejudge
29th May 2017, 09:29 AM
Well because the previous owner knew nothing about transformers as well I would say.:)

So there were people like me around 40 years ago as well :)

Looks like i'll just move the jones plug to pos 2 & 3 and all should be sweet, plus I have a spare stepdown transformer if anyone needs one in the future.

Thanks for the help guys.

Yes, the white transformer is one I picked up previously so not related to the Lawman.

Autosteve
29th May 2017, 09:31 AM
Thanks Bozzo :)

You're right, I cleaned off the grime and found the same labels as yours. I told you I didn't know much about transformers, but learning now.

110793

Then if it's just a matter of moving the jones plug to position 2 & 3 for 240v input, just wondering why wasn't that done before and what's the other transformer for?

Just check that last post I wrote and also check the main reset coil on the relay stack hasn't been changed to a 110 volt coil. If this is the case that would explain why the machine was wired to run 110 volts.

The main reset coil may need to be changed back to a 24v if it has been changed to 110.

Fire_Power
29th May 2017, 09:42 AM
Yep, just move the jones plug. It can only go in two different positions - one of them puts the primary windings in series for 240V the other the windings are in parallel. Be guided by the words on the transformer (they don't know the jones plug exists, the words are to guide someone direct wiring to the transformer. The jones plug takes care of this arrangement for you). Verify by looking at the physical wiring of the transformer terminals to the jones plug and if you want to be doubly sure remove the low voltage fuses - playfield and lamps and measure the secondary voltages at the transformer. 6 V for lamps, 25 V for coils - both ac.

BE AWARE THAT ANY WIRING THAT IS PVC COATED AND RUNS THE RESET BANK AND DROP RESETS IS MAINS VOLTAGE. Make sure the circuit supplying the pin has rcd / earth leakage protection.

All of my GTB pins of this vintage have the jones plug mains voltage selector arrangement so always thought it was standard.

thejudge
29th May 2017, 09:51 AM
Just check that last post I wrote and also check the main reset coil on the relay stack hasn't been changed to a 110 volt coil. If this is the case that would explain why the machine was wired to run 110 volts.

The main reset coil may need to be changed back to a 24v if it has been changed to 110.

Sorry, learner here.
Where would I find the main reset coil on the relay stack ?

- - - Updated - - -


Yep, just move the jones plug. It can only go in two different positions - one of them puts the primary windings in series for 240V the other the windings are in parallel. Be guided by the words on the transformer (they don't know the jones plug exists, the words are to guide someone direct wiring to the transformer. The jones plug takes care of this arrangement for you). Verify by looking at the physical wiring of the transformer terminals to the jones plug and if you want to be doubly sure remove the low voltage fuses - playfield and lamps and measure the secondary voltages at the transformer. 6 V for lamps, 25 V for coils - both ac.

BE AWARE THAT ANY WIRING THAT IS PVC COATED AND RUNS THE RESET BANK AND DROP RESETS IS MAINS VOLTAGE. Make sure the circuit supplying the pin has rcd / earth leakage protection.

All of my GTB pins of this vintage have the jones plug mains voltage selector arrangement so always thought it was standard.

I have earth leakage protection and also my son is an electrician so I always get him to check these things out before I put power to them, thanks for the warning :)

Autosteve
29th May 2017, 10:13 AM
Yep exactly as Fire_Power said regarding the coils however mine where never wired in PVC cable.

I have a Wild Life and it was using a 110volt reset coil on the main relay bank, ( on the lower transformer panel), but on a Jungle Queen I owned, this coil was a 24volt.

Both mains transformers were 110-240 in both machines but maybe this transformer was changed over the different eras of these Gottlieb EMs. Maybe the Wild Life had a 110 output terminal so the reset coil could run on 110 and the Jungle Queen, being one of the last Gottlieb EMs didn't have this 110 output terminal and therefore a 24 volt coil was fitted.

Who knows. I very rarely found two machines wired exactly the same to tell you the truth and there were always variations to the wiring diagram.

Fire_Power
29th May 2017, 11:00 AM
To my knowledge the reset coils were not changed based on operating voltage. If you look in the manuals they often quote two different part numbers for 110 or 240V transformers but I have never seen different coil numbers quoted for the different voltage mains powered coils. This info is in a table in the same section of the manual and I've viewed it in multiple manuals so i don't believe it's an oversight.

It's not too hard for me to think the same coil could be adequately used for both voltages. All other things being equal - ie same physical coil - the force a coil developes is (approximately) proportional to current. The only other factor I can think of that may be relevant is the winding insulation breakdown voltage - again no problem for the same coil on these two voltages.

I have both Wild Life and Jungle Princess in the collection - both good games! The WL has a low voltage bank reset coil - both in the game and on the schematic. The JP has mains voltage reset coils for drops and bank - again both in game and schematic. They are slighlty different vintage games, so differing base designs I would say? WL is smaller coin door and lesser base cab size compared to JP

thejudge
6th June 2017, 09:05 PM
Now that I have the transformer sorted out and wired correctly, thanks to my son and Fire_Power, I'm just wondering what this parts is and what is it for? The silver thingy, not the jones plug.

http://i345.photobucket.com/albums/p375/tjudge1959/Lawman/2017-06-06%2020.58.36_zpsy0xhnvxi.jpg

I haven't seen this before in my other EM's.

illawarra_steelers
6th June 2017, 09:33 PM
it's a bridge rectifier

thejudge
6th June 2017, 10:35 PM
it's a bridge rectifier

Thanks Tony.
I'm just trying to work out what it's for because there is a wire hack going to the playfield from this bridge rectifier.
Looking at the picture, the power seems to be coming in at the bottom left terminal.
The 2 wires from the bottom right terminal are going to the flipper buttons.
The top right wire is going to the stepper unit.
The top left wire, which is the hack, is going to the playfield via a separate connection (i.e. not through the jones plugs) to the middle contact of the 2 flipper coils.
I'm just wondering why and is this normal?

Autosteve
6th June 2017, 10:54 PM
Sounds like someone wanted the flippers working on DC.

A bridge rectifier is for converting AC to DC.

To confirm this use of the bridge, looking closely at the bridge terminals you should see the terminals are labelled + and - with the last two labelled AC or the symbol for AC which is a wavely line.

The + and - would be connected to the flipper circuit and the two AC would be connected to the power that would normally power the flippers.

If it is hooked up something like this I would say your flippers are being powered by DC.

illawarra_steelers
7th June 2017, 06:17 AM
yep, wasn't factory and back in the days when the operators hacked their games.

the spin out i just finished had bridge rectifier installed for both of the flipper coils.

thejudge
7th June 2017, 06:31 AM
As a matter of interest, what's the benefit of having the flippers powered by DC and not AC ?

Looking more into this, it looks like it provides more power but also runs alot hotter. This might explain why the flipper coil burnt and charred under the playfield. I might look into changing back to the original spec. I'm going to rebuild the flippers and replace the coils anyway so hopefully that will correct the reason it was done in the first place.

Fire_Power
7th June 2017, 08:05 AM
DC to a solenoid provides more kick so things seem snappier. On it's own wouldn't cause the burn out. If you leave any coil on for long enough it will get hot, melt plastic and burn or hopefully blow the fuse first.

Edit: strictly not true - you can leave an appropriately rated coil on for long times eg coin lockout. But a power coil like a flipper of bumper is likely to burn if the trigger switch is held closed for prolonged periods.

Get rid of the hack or be regarded as a heathen low life :)

thejudge
7th June 2017, 08:50 AM
DC to a solenoid provides more kick so things seem snappier. On it's own wouldn't cause the burn out. If you leave any coil on for long enough it will get hot, melt plastic and burn or hopefully blow the fuse first.

Edit: strictly not true - you can leave an appropriately rated coil on for long times eg coin lockout. But a power coil like a flipper of bumper is likely to burn if the trigger switch is held closed for prolonged periods.

Get rid of the hack or be regarded as a heathen low life :)

Thanks Dave, that's pretty much what I said I think, except for the heathen low life bit :)

I now have to work out the correct wiring.

illawarra_steelers
7th June 2017, 09:24 AM
dc just doesn't feel right on an em 1970s gottlieb.

the spin out here has that setup and is on the list of things to change back to factory.

thejudge
9th June 2017, 12:20 PM
Quick update on the bridge rectifier.
I have removed it and have rewired as per the original setup.
One thing I did work out was that the black wire that was providing one of the AC power sources to the bridge rectifier was supposed to be used for the chime unit. That could be why the chimes were missing?. Not sure if that was a common a practice or maybe he just wanted a quiet pin (BORING) :)

Also, if I find that the flippers aren't powerful enough, there is a yellow & orange dot version of the coil (A-5141) available so no need to go back to DC.

Fire_Power
9th June 2017, 02:11 PM
On GTBs of this vintage the plain black wire is common to the non-fused, non-switched side that chains all coils together, so it would have gone to the chime unit for the common side.

Good to see you're not a LL heathen :)

thejudge
12th June 2017, 06:05 PM
After reading the post about removing rust with vinegar from jason1 a few days ago, I thought I would give it a go on the Lawman door and coin entrance plate.

Here is the before picture:

http://i345.photobucket.com/albums/p375/tjudge1959/Lawman/Orig_Door_zpsqolbdg7q.jpg

After the vinegar bath:

http://i345.photobucket.com/albums/p375/tjudge1959/Lawman/2017-06-12%2017.33.33_zpsc4uc52no.jpg

It took a few days but it removed all the rust and it came out looking pretty good.

With the coin entrance plate, there were too many pit marks, so I gently hit that with a wire brush drill bit and gave it the brushed metal look and its looks OK.

With the coin door, that's straight out of the bath, there are still small pit marks as expected, but it looks a lot better.

I might have to do some more research to see if there is a way to minimise the pit marks.

Since I have had success so far, I made a quick bath to do some rusty legs, using a PVC pipe with an end on it, to see how that goes :)

jason1
12th June 2017, 06:23 PM
After reading the post about removing rust with vinegar from jason1 a few days ago, I thought I would give it a go on the Lawman door and coin entrance plate.

Here is the before picture:

http://i345.photobucket.com/albums/p375/tjudge1959/Lawman/Orig_Door_zpsqolbdg7q.jpg

After the vinegar bath:

http://i345.photobucket.com/albums/p375/tjudge1959/Lawman/2017-06-12%2017.33.33_zpsc4uc52no.jpg

It took a few days but it removed all the rust and it came out looking pretty good.

With the coin entrance plate, there were too many pit marks, so I gently hit that with a wire brush drill bit and gave it the brushed metal look and its looks OK.

With the coin door, that's straight out of the bath, there are still small pit marks as expected, but it looks a lot better.

I might have to do some more research to see if there is a way to minimize the pit marks.

Since I have had success so far, I made a quick bath to do some rusty legs, using a PVC pipe with an end on it, to see how that goes :)

sadly You wouldn't really minimize pits if the rust has gone deeper into the metal, It is only removing the rust so if the rust has gone in deep then sadly it will leave pits where the rust was located that has now been removed from the vinegar.
But at least its a good indicator it penetrates and removes all the rust. the good metal wont be effected as long as all the metal is submerged .
So the damage to the metal is from the rust not from the vinegar, the vinegar has just cleaned all the rust to reveal the damage.
. its certainly removed all that deep rust going by the photo.
Bit of a hint, if you needed to Brush it to much then it could have stayed in the bath a few days more. It will have no dramas killing very deep rust,

Ps that PVC Bath idea for legs is brilliant, I never thought of that, lol, make sure the vinegar is covering the metal completely so you dont get damage above the water line


I guess the best bet is to give it a coat of paint, if you are on a budget

thejudge
12th June 2017, 08:15 PM
Ps that PVC Bath idea for legs is brilliant, I never thought of that, lol, make sure the vinegar is covering the metal completely so you dont get damage above the water line


This is the PVC bath, I can get 2 legs in and have a bit of wire connected so I can pull them out.

http://i345.photobucket.com/albums/p375/tjudge1959/Lawman/2017-06-12%2020.03.55_zps31qvrtxo.jpg


I guess the best bet is to give it a coat of paint, if you are on a budget

No, I'll leave them as they are as they look better in person, and painting just wouldn't look right.

Regarding the pitting, I know that you can't avoid it as the rust has done the damage, I meant that maybe I can sand and polish them out to make them a little less noticeable.

illawarra_steelers
12th June 2017, 08:23 PM
it's amazing how old legs come up.

Fire_Power
12th June 2017, 08:34 PM
For chromed legs you can also bring them up nicely by rubbing them with alfoil. Just scrunch it up and rub with water which I do and I've heard some use coke.

Autosteve
12th June 2017, 08:38 PM
What a top idea. Legs in PVC pipe. The vinegar is brilliant as well.

I've had no net for 3 days or I would have suggested toilet cleaner as a rust remover after all, it is virtually the same thing but much, much cheaper and a lot more concentrated .

As for your door and any other pit marks, a random orbital sander leaves nice consistent swirl marks much like the later model Gottlieb doors have as a standard finish.

If you really want that vinegar to work fast, hit it with soda bi carbonate as it reacts with the vinegar and that shit eats right into the rust. I just found two sets of Gottlieb legs, rusted of coarse and I'm thinking I might give the vinegar and soda trick but while it's still reacting, hit it with the random orbital sander.

Just remember once you have cleaned the rust off to put some wax or polish on the metal.

jason1
12th June 2017, 09:20 PM
If they are chrome, just dont leave them in too long or the chrome will come off

thejudge
12th June 2017, 09:33 PM
For chromed legs you can also bring them up nicely by rubbing them with alfoil. Just scrunch it up and rub with water which I do and I've heard some use coke.

That's how I normally do it, just thought I'd try this way and see what happens :)


If they are chrome, just dont leave them in too long or the chrome will come off

How long is too long?
The door was in the bath for 2-3 days.

jason1
12th June 2017, 09:52 PM
Id only do a quick for a few hours and then clean it, chrome will come off in vinegar and any acids for that matter, I thought you were painting the legs so I thought it would be fine but if your just trying to clean rust and keep chrome then it might be the best solution. and dont leave it for too long

thejudge
30th June 2017, 03:17 PM
A quick update.
I have finally finished cleaning up the base board, a few broken wires needed to be replaced, hopefully I got them all.

I have now started on the head box.
I removed all the internals and noticed a few dip marks on the top. I pressed down on one and it felt like the wood was rotten, so I dug it out with my screw driver and found that it was charred wood that had just been painted over. I found more so dug those out as well as this is how it ended up.

http://i345.photobucket.com/albums/p375/tjudge1959/Lawman/2017-06-30%2014.52.19_zpscemicmip.jpg

A lot a char holes, some that are quite deep, so it looks like this pin might have been caught in a fire at one stage?
This pin just keeps giving me one surprise after another :)

illawarra_steelers
30th June 2017, 05:34 PM
shit! in 40 years of restoring pinballs i have never seen anything like that :huh:

goodolddays
1st July 2017, 12:06 PM
That is quite a surprise for sure .. if only it could tell you the story of why:)

thejudge
2nd July 2017, 02:16 PM
I sanded off the paint today and this is the extent of the charring:

http://i345.photobucket.com/albums/p375/tjudge1959/Lawman/2017-07-02%2013.28.58_zpsn01sbyza.jpg

In this pic you can see some slight scorch marks from the heat coming through the vents, haven't found any damage to the internals at this stage:

http://i345.photobucket.com/albums/p375/tjudge1959/Lawman/2017-07-02%2013.41.08_zpsznitlvkv.jpg

The rest of the head box seems fine, a lot of bondo ahead, luckily I bought a big tin :)

comprar
16th July 2017, 05:23 AM
I have a half empty 20 foot shipping container on the farm sitting about 120Kms south west of you.

thejudge
20th July 2017, 04:33 PM
Small update, it's been to cold in the garage to do much.

I have almost finished the cabinet work now, just a bit more sanding to go then I will then put it away until it's warmer to do the painting.

As I couldn't find any stencils available for this title, I have started to try and recreate them from internet images. I haven't found it too easy as the designs seem to vary from pin to pin, but I am happy with what I have done for the head box. Next onto to the main cabinet.

I have also started to clean up the head score board. After I removed it from the head box, I found that the particle board was falling apart and was also lifting off the plywood backing. So I glued every lifting bit I could find and once that dried, painted it all with a glue/water mixture to hold to wood together. I then had to mould some bondo into a few areas as they had perished completely. I have now finished it off with a few coats of paint and it looks in a lot better condition now.

113474

Next job is the clean the score reels etc as there looks like about 40 years of grime on them :(

illawarra_steelers
20th July 2017, 04:44 PM
just a little tip buy some felt strips and place them on the timber before you install the new backglass.

thejudge
29th July 2017, 01:19 PM
Started to work on cleaning the score reel mechs etc today and bad news :cry

The score reels are very dirty so I was using soapy water to try and clean the white parts, like I've done before.
The excess water from the rag ran over the paint numbers and they just started to wash off.
Not sure why as I didn't even touch them with a rag or anything, very bummed out :realmad:

113971

I know that Greg from oldpinballs.com used to make decals for these reels, so I will chase him up to see if he can save the day.

oldhank
29th July 2017, 01:24 PM
Bugger

Sent from my T-Hub2 using Aussie Arcade mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=90390)

pocketscience
29th July 2017, 01:59 PM
How many did you bugger up? If it's just one I possibly have a spare.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

vintage
29th July 2017, 02:06 PM
.

thejudge
29th July 2017, 02:29 PM
How many did you bugger up? If it's just one I possibly have a spare.


I have spares

Wow, thanks for the offers guys, much appreciated.

But just wondering as I still have to clean up the rest of the score reels, what's the best way to do it as the same thing is probably going to happen to the other ones?

Is it maybe better to go the decal way?

illawarra_steelers
29th July 2017, 02:36 PM
after looking at them yesterday they will all do the same (black come off) go the decals from greg.

pocketscience
29th July 2017, 03:41 PM
Anything water based will take off the black ink. I've used novus previously with good results.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

thejudge
31st August 2017, 01:15 PM
Well I have now sorted out the score reel issue so I can continue with the project.

Here is the reel after I tried all sorts of cleaners to get rid of the stains, but nothing would work. You can see how stained it is from the middle part.

115444

So I went the sticker way, thanks to Greg for his help

115447

I had the color matched to the original plastic color, not white, and it looks good.

em_pins
2nd September 2017, 06:49 AM
Very happy to see the decals worked out for you Trev. They will look great when all installed.

Greg

thejudge
28th October 2017, 04:13 PM
Been a few months since I've done anything on this restore.
Lost interest for awhile as the Pinball Pool beckons, but can't do that until this is finished so I'm getting back into it.

Did a little bit of work of the playfield yesterday and finally had a chance to get some paint on the cabinet, at least the under coat.
118543

Will put the top coat on tomorrow after a quick sand.

thejudge
28th October 2017, 06:28 PM
I forgot to mention that when I was working on the playfield I noticed that all of the new PBR rubbers that I put on about 3-4 months ago have pretty much all perished :(

118558
118559

I have done 2 other pin restores and have not had this problem before. Dodgy Rubbers ?

wiredoug
28th October 2017, 06:30 PM
I forgot to mention ..rubbers..have pretty much all perished :(

was the glass left on or off?

thejudge
28th October 2017, 06:32 PM
was the glass left on or off?

Glass is off, the PF is on a rotisserie while I work on it

wiredoug
28th October 2017, 06:37 PM
Glass is off, the PF is on a rotisserie while I work on it

yep im seeing it here all the time cos i have a shocking habit of leaving playfields half done for ages. PL (pinball life) marked ones are worse that PRW ( marco) but they both do it.

research and snooping around online suggests its relate to ozone cracking in the rubber and for some reason it only happens when they are 'left out'.. its not such an issues with the glass on

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ozone_cracking

thejudge
28th October 2017, 06:48 PM
yep im seeing it here all the time cos i have a shocking habit of leaving playfields half done for ages. PL (pinball life) marked ones are worse that PRW ( marco) but they both do it.

research and snooping around online suggests its relate to ozone cracking in the rubber and for some reason it only happens when they are 'left out'.. its not such an issues with the glass on

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ozone_cracking

Thanks Doug, I wasn't aware of this. I thought they just cracked due to age.
I got these from PBR so just wondering if they have changed their suppliers and they aren't using those preventative additives mentioned in the Wikipedia article?

wiredoug
28th October 2017, 06:51 PM
Thanks Doug, I wasn't aware of this. I thought they just cracked due to age.
I got these from PBR so just wondering if they have changed their suppliers and they aren't using those preventative additives mentioned in the Wikipedia article?

look real close at them .. see if they say PL ?

Autosteve
28th October 2017, 07:01 PM
Shit, I have only seen rubbers perish like that over many years. I have my rubbers just sitting in open containers all be it in a set of drawers but still, very open to the atmosphere and some of those are a couple of years old.

They still look and perform like brand new rubbers

I do remember there was a large pinball supplier in NSW at one time that was trying to cover such rubbers with Talc to cover the cracks but hey, I always stretch them before I buy and had to find another supplier.

thejudge
28th October 2017, 07:03 PM
look real close at them .. see if they say PL ?

Looks like it says Wico or W1C0 ?

118561

wiredoug
28th October 2017, 07:07 PM
there you go .. wico ..

that confirms it basically happens to all of them.

dont rubber games until its time to put the glass on seems the only way to protect them

illawarra_steelers
28th October 2017, 07:08 PM
strange after seeing these today trevor as i always get my rubbers from pbr and never had a problem. though i always put the glass back on a game while working on them.

Autosteve
28th October 2017, 07:11 PM
I'm thinking they may be new old stock and have been painted. Is there any signs they may have been painted?.

wiredoug
28th October 2017, 07:12 PM
I'm thinking they may be new old stock and have been painted. Is there any signs they may have been painted?.

i have samples i bought new from multiple sources that all did it.

thejudge
28th October 2017, 07:17 PM
The rubber I took the pic of was a spare that they gave me, it looks fine, no paint etc, but has been kept in a sealed plastic bag.
Looks like I will have to cough up $20 for another set and only put them on when I can put them under glass.
Autosteve, the ones I got from you a few months ago are just sitting in a box at home and look fine, very strange.

wiredoug
28th October 2017, 07:22 PM
i dont know yet cos i just started doing it so its just a guess but covering the playfield with an old sheet MIGHT work??

Autosteve
28th October 2017, 07:34 PM
The rubber I took the pic of was a spare that they gave me, they look fine, no paint etc, but has been kept in a sealed plastic bag.
Looks like I will have to cough up $20 for another set and only put them on when I can put them under glass.
Autosteve, the one I got from you a few months ago are just sitting in a box at home and look fine, very strange.

Yer, after reading this I went in and looked at that same batch of rubbers I gave you and illawarra_steelers some of and just sorted into my collection. Not a mark on them either.

About two weeks ago I undid the rubber from that same batch, (those big pinball rubbers I never have a need for), that I told you and Illawarra I use only to hold the batteries in place on my farm quad bikes.

That rubber has been holding that quad battery in place from about 4 weeks before I gave you guys some of them and it had no signs of cracking either.

It sits in the open, well under the seat but quite open to the elements.

I got those rubbers in a "party pack" from PSPA..

http://www.pinballspareparts.com.au/rubbers/rub-mix200.html

wiredoug
28th October 2017, 07:51 PM
only noticed the white ones doing it and it seems only under tension.

Autosteve
28th October 2017, 08:02 PM
only noticed the white ones doing it and it seems only under tension.

I hope it isn't a taste of things to come mate. That party pack I got has been an asset to me.

It had so many rubbers, some I really have no idea what machines ever used them and more yellow flipper rubbers than I know what to do with but outstanding value none the less.

Hell I use rubbers from that pack for what I said, holding quad bike batteries in place to using some for vibration insulating parts on projects.

I hope you get them back in stock. Still need to buy a party pack of pinball bolts and screws again, not only for pinballs but projects.

thejudge
29th October 2017, 11:37 AM
Cabinet based coat all done now

118575

Tried to do the webbing but we couldn't get it to go right in our tests, so I will have to look for an alternative.
I remember talking to a few guys at Pinfest and they used the webbing/marble effect from a spray can, so I will look into that.

I found this one at Bunnings, might be good enough
https://www.bunnings.com.au/dulux-duramax-300g-marble-black-effect_p1400867

Rob1966
29th October 2017, 02:25 PM
Webbing is to hard to get right just do a splatter effect much easier and still looks good


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

illawarra_steelers
29th October 2017, 04:41 PM
Webbing is to hard to get right just do a splatter effect much easier and still looks good




agree, with a bit of practice less to go wrong. the flicking of an old toothbrush is a little paint works well.

thejudge
9th November 2017, 03:25 PM
Finally got around to doing the webbing on the cabinet today.

I decided to use a spray can of Dulux dura max marble effect black from Bunnings.
119133

I did a few test runs to get used to it first.
Strange stuff, comes out like spider web and floats around then grabs onto the surface.

Before:
119134

After:
119135

First time doing this and I'm happy with the result, now to work on the stencils :)

illawarra_steelers
9th November 2017, 03:27 PM
wow, that looks awesome! will have to give this a try.

goodolddays
9th November 2017, 05:07 PM
Looks great Trevor ! Will have to keep that stuff in mind if I am ever keen enough to bother with doing the webbing effect when repainting a cab.

Sent from my SM-A520F using Aussie Arcade mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=90390)

thejudge
10th November 2017, 03:23 PM
I have finished the head box stencils and gave them a test run, not too bad. This is without weights to hold down the edges so the finished job will be a sharper.

119190

The original:
119191

I did managed to get a partial pattern from the head box when I sanded it, so I just had to fill in a few gaps so I think I'm pretty close.
The colours look pretty good although the brown could be a bit darker, but I found it very hard to get any sort of brown in acrylic spray cans, so it will have to do.

thejudge
18th November 2017, 03:19 PM
A quick update.
I did finish the cabinet stencils and was lucky enough to again get a partial pattern from the old cabinet. Again, the pattern was different to the ones I have seen on the net, so I just followed what I could. I have also now finished the painting, here's the final result.

119720

The picture quality not real good, looks better in person, like most things.

I am now moving all the hardware from the old cabinet to the new one and I am finding that they don't match. I had to get the saw out to fit in the original lockdown bar mech as it different from the later designs. Also, the brackets to hold up the playfield are in different place and are different, hopefully I have installed them correctly otherwise the PF might not sit properly, anyway time will tell.

Also, if anyone wants the old cabinet, its yours for free. I have nowhere to put it.

goodolddays
22nd November 2017, 05:37 AM
Cab turned out well Trevor

JOKERPOKER
22nd November 2017, 08:28 AM
Looks great and that web effect turned out really cool.

thejudge
26th November 2017, 02:01 PM
Working on the coin door today and it's coming along alright.

I door didn't come up too bad, you can still see the pit marks but a lot better than it was. It still needs a final polish.
120143

Luckily I got a spare door from illawarra_steelers and I was able to swap most of the door mechs for nicer looking ones which look like bronze or brass.
120144

I'm now at the stage where I have to work out the wiring.
Because I had to replace the cabinet, I went from a 3 coin slots to 2, so I have the change the wiring to cater for that.

When I got the door mechs, they where just in a pile as you see them in the pic, but I think I can work out where they go.
120145

What I want to do is to wire it up so that when I press the red button on the front, it starts a game regardless whether there is a credit or not, and also remove the 3rd coin mech wiring.

I have taken the following pics but it is hard to see the wires colors.
120146
120147
120148

The 3 wires going to a taped part is actually the bottom part of a coil that has broken off.

I will see if I can get better pics which might be more helpful.

Any help would be much appreciated :)


Update ..
I found how to set to free play, so ignore that part.

Autosteve
26th November 2017, 09:38 PM
Update ..
I found how to set to free play, so ignore that part.

Contact in the credit unit?.

thejudge
26th November 2017, 09:50 PM
Contact in the credit unit?.

Yep

120174

Gottlieb Free Play.
There is one switch that controls free play on a Gottlieb game. Set the credit wheel to zero credits (shows zero credits through the backglass). On the stepper unit there will be a notched wheel with a pin sticking out. This pin should have opened two switches only when the credit wheel is at zero credits. Adjust only the smaller of the two switch contacts (located closest to the backglass) so it's permanently closed (or use a jumper wire), regardless of the credit wheel position.

Taken from http://www.pinrepair.com

Autosteve
26th November 2017, 10:07 PM
Yep



Gottlieb Free Play.
There is one switch that controls free play on a Gottlieb game. Set the credit wheel to zero credits (shows zero credits through the backglass). On the stepper unit there will be a notched wheel with a pin sticking out. This pin should have opened two switches only when the credit wheel is at zero credits. Adjust only the smaller of the two switch contacts (located closest to the backglass) so it's permanently closed (or use a jumper wire), regardless of the credit wheel position.



That's it. I wasn't quote sure you knew but apparently you do.

thejudge
2nd December 2017, 10:58 AM
A bit more work done over the last couple of days, and a few more hickups. This pin just keeps giving me surprises :)

I worked out the coin door wiring and the door and everything is now on the pin.
120415

I also had a problem with the top arch but that has now been sorted out.

The next thing to do was to put on the new side rails, should be pretty easy as I have done it several times before with no issues.
I positioned the left side rail on and just put one nail to hold it in place, spot on.
120417

On the right side, for some reason, the button is at a different height, about 25mm higher.
I thought that it might be just the cabinet as this was a replacement cab, but the original trashed cabinet was the same, right button higher?
120418

Here a pic with the new rail on the top and the old one underneath.
120419

I am using Railways rails but I must stress that the problems isn't with Jeff's rails, I have used them before with no issues and I will re-use these rails on another project.
There just seems that there is a difference with these old cabinets that I wasn't aware of, so this post is just a heads up to double check before ordering new rails for old pins.

Now I have an issue on what to do? The rails I removed where pretty scratch and one had a dent, but I might have to reused them, bummer :(

Rob1966
2nd December 2017, 11:21 AM
I had a similar problem when I put new rails on my Gotlieb Covergirl and all I did was lifted up the rail a little on that side just enough to split the difference with the gap in the flipper hole and visually you can't tell any difference at all


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

thejudge
2nd December 2017, 01:25 PM
I have looked at the original rails again, and I think it will be too much effort for little reward to fix them up and I will never be happy with them.

My latest idea, which I might go with, is to bondo the hole and redrill it in the correct lower position. The rails will hide the bondo etc so it should be an easy fix, I just have to get the right drill bit, so a trip to Bunning's.

Fire_Power
2nd December 2017, 02:49 PM
Not sure about bondo for this? Think I'd cut a tight fit wood plug and glue this in, then use two bits of scrap wood well clamped to temporarily sandwich the cab with plug in between. Now drill thru the whole lot and remove the temporary pieces. Just a thought feel free to ignore :)

thejudge
2nd December 2017, 03:09 PM
Not sure about bondo for this? Think I'd cut a tight fit wood plug and glue this in, then use two bits of scrap wood well clamped to temporarily sandwich the cab with plug in between. Now drill thru the whole lot and remove the temporary pieces. Just a thought feel free to ignore :)

I'll think about the wood plug approach as it might be a stronger final result.

No point clamping the wood and drilling thru as I need to drill 2 holes. The first one is about 23mm, and goes about half way thru, and the second 14mm hole goes all the way. There is a metal bush that goes in the 14mm hole and the button slides in and out of this. This is a 71 Gottlieb with metal flipper buttons before the new style.

Thanks for the advise Dave, I'll just ignore half of what you said :)

Fire_Power
2nd December 2017, 03:14 PM
No reason you can't drill twice with clamped wood - just need to measure the depth. I reckon you might bust the bondo or plug out of the cab side if it's not supported.

Autosteve
2nd December 2017, 09:40 PM
I'm thinking two pieces of wood, drill the correct size hole through one, clamp the undrilled piece to the other drilled piece and use a holesaw, again, the right sized hole but offset the hole the required amount so you just are cutting a piece like this...( sorry about using a picture of the moon but it was handy to explain what I mean)....

https://c1.staticflickr.com/8/7079/6875618702_ed5fb44646_b.jpg

Now you can liquid nails that scallop in and maybe get a panel nail in to hold it in place.

The reason I would take this approach is you won't be stressing a complete hole plug when drilling it as you should be able to file the untouched portion of the cabinet with a round file especially if you oval the existing hole prior to putting in the repair scallop.

An alternative method would be to clamp a piece of wood inside the cabinet so you can center a holesaw and offset the holesaw to the proper location and grab the scallop cut out with the holesaw to glue back in the now oval shaped hole.

At least then the material will match the existing cab material.

thejudge
3rd December 2017, 07:00 AM
No reason you can't drill twice with clamped wood - just need to measure the depth. I reckon you might bust the bondo or plug out of the cab side if it's not supported.


I'm thinking two pieces of wood, drill the correct size hole through one, clamp the undrilled piece to the other drilled piece and use a holesaw, again, the right sized hole but offset the hole the required amount so you just are cutting a piece like this...( sorry about using a picture of the moon but it was handy to explain what I mean)....

Now you can liquid nails that scallop in and maybe get a panel nail in to hold it in place.

The reason I would take this approach is you won't be stressing a complete hole plug when drilling it as you should be able to file the untouched portion of the cabinet with a round file especially if you oval the existing hole prior to putting in the repair scallop.

An alternative method would be to clamp a piece of wood inside the cabinet so you can center a holesaw and offset the holesaw to the proper location and grab the scallop cut out with the holesaw to glue back in the now oval shaped hole.

At least then the material will match the existing cab material.

Thanks guys, I understand what you saying and i'll give it a go

Railways
4th December 2017, 07:38 AM
Hi Trev. Currently away on hols. Sorry to hear you have an abnormally with rail fitment. Happy to help by making a one off at N/C. Can you supply the X & Y location of where you need the hole to be and I'll email Mark to ask him to knock one up. Cheers jeff

thejudge
4th December 2017, 08:33 AM
Hi Trev. Currently away on hols. Sorry to hear you have an abnormally with rail fitment. Happy to help by making a one off at N/C. Can you supply the X & Y location of where you need the hole to be and I'll email Mark to ask him to knock one up. Cheers jeff

Hi Jeff,
I have pretty much sorted it out now, I should have finished moving the hole by tonight, so the existing rail should be fine.
Thanks for the great service and offer for a one off rail, I'll keep it in mind in case I come across this situation again.
Thanks
Trevor

Railways
4th December 2017, 04:51 PM
No worries fella. Sing out of it doesn't work out. Happy to help if we can.

thejudge
8th December 2017, 10:06 AM
I have now fixed the right flipper button and the side rails are on, looks good.

I have a few things that I want to tidy up but I'm at the stage where I can at least turn it on.
I have never seen it working and don't know if it was even working when it was stored away.
I was pretty sure it wasn't going to work considering the condition it was in, but I flicked the switch.

The coin door lights came on, I put credits on the game and pressed the start button and nothing.
I pushed down the switch that the ball rolls over when it ejects and it did do a target bank reset and turn the scores reels a few spots, not enough to reset, and that was it.

Looks like a long road ahead for this one :(

thejudge
12th January 2018, 02:35 PM
Just back from a new years cruise, so it's back to reality and a diet :)

I've been looking at the Lawman and still no closer in getting it going, so I think it might be time to get professional help.
At least once it's working I can sort out the other issues and hopefully move on.

goodolddays
13th January 2018, 02:37 PM
Hi Trevor .
Just read through this whole thread again to see what you had posted about trying to get this game running but there is very little info .

Maybe if you post what you have checked/tested we could give you some ideas on where to look.

Bit of a shame to have to pay a tech to sort it out for you when you have lots of knowledge and experience on here to tap into .:)

thejudge
13th January 2018, 08:31 PM
Hi Trevor .
Just read through this whole thread again to see what you had posted about trying to get this game running but there is very little info .
Maybe if you post what you have checked/tested we could give you some ideas on where to look.
Bit of a shame to have to pay a tech to sort it out for you when you have lots of knowledge and experience on here to tap into .:)

Yeah, I guess you might be right, I'll give it another go and see if anyone can help.

It's just sometimes I get to a point where I don't want to look at it because I can't figure out why it's not working :(
When that happens I go onto other projects like the jukebox wallbox I did recently and I've now also starting on pinball pool.

So i'll start again and see how I go.

millsy56
13th January 2018, 09:16 PM
Agree with dave, need to know exactly what happens from power up. Follow the startup sequence helps.
Manually activate the START relay (with outhole switch closed) & see what happens.Remember high voltages around that area.

Autosteve
13th January 2018, 10:44 PM
Yeah, I guess you might be right, I'll give it another go and see if anyone can help.

It's just sometimes I get to a point where I don't want to look at it because I can't figure out why it's not working :(
When that happens I go onto other projects like the jukebox wallbox I did recently and I've now also starting on pinball pool.

So i'll start again and see how I go.

If your up for a visit, I can drop over and have a look if you want.

Sometimes a look through different eyes can help. I can't promise we will have it going but I have a bit of an idea how EMs work.

I'd like to see how that Pinball Pool is coming along anyway.

P.m me if your interested.

thejudge
14th January 2018, 12:23 PM
If your up for a visit, I can drop over and have a look if you want.

Sometimes a look through different eyes can help. I can't promise we will have it going but I have a bit of an idea how EMs work.

I'd like to see how that Pinball Pool is coming along anyway.

P.m me if your interested.

Thanks for the Help Steve, much appreciated :)

thejudge
19th January 2018, 08:57 PM
A quick update and a big thanks to Autosteve who came around today to help to try and get the pin working.

I had worked out previously that it would partially start by activating the start relay so we started there.
After adjusting numerous switches, we managed to get it to a stage where the start cycle would almost complete, except for the ball ejecting.
We found that as well as the ball eject not working, the right flipper & right kicker were also not working.
The problem was that there was no power getting to the mechs and we believed that there should have been a connection between the flippers that was missing, so we put one in and those mechs started working :)

The next thing was that the right flipper wasn't working.
Steve did a few tests and found that there was a dead short which was causing the problem. After some detective work he found that someone had cut the wire from the 'E' closes gate relay and had hard wired it to the common wire, causing the short. Not sure why this was done?
That was fixed that and then the ball eject, right flipper & right kicker started to work :)
122838

Side note, not happy with the flippers, they are going to need a bit a work.

The last major problem was getting the game to start from the replay button.
We tried for hours trying to get it to work and we think the main problem is with the wiring on the door.
We had some wins and we thought we had it, then it wouldn't work the next time.
It ended up that we adjusted something and now it doesn't complete the start cycle again :realmad:

At this stage I realised that it was 6:45, as the wife almost had dinner ready, so it was time to pack it up.
Time flies when you get your head down trying to sort something out.

Anyway, another big thanks again to Steve for his time to help me out today, I think it was about 4-5 hours.
I learnt a lot more about EM pins and also how to strip wires with your thumb nail :o

I have a few things to tidy up on the pin now and get it ready for the next attempt.

vintage
19th January 2018, 09:22 PM
Good on ya Stevo top work

Autosteve
19th January 2018, 10:00 PM
It was excellent to spend time with Trev today and we did have some successes but time got away..I thought it was about 4pm not 7pm but time flys when your having fun I guess.

Trev liked a few of my "tech tricks" like stripping wire with the thumb nail and his laughter was addictive I will say.

Problems with the machine were basically hacks done by others and out of timing issues are what it has now that only more time will fix.

24volt absent from the front door was proven by linking between the right flipper button, (while machine was in game mode), to the common 24v buss in the front door.

This link in place and the the front door credit button works, Check continuity from the start relay, though two motor contacts, a contact on a relay ( can't remember which one now), through the door slam switch to the credit switch and it shows fine however not able to carry enough power to pull the relay in from the button button when powered up.

Anyway nothing more time won't fix and when Trev has some more time vacant, I'll come around again and get this piece running correctly.

She is actually a nice piece and once done will last another 30 years I would say.

So when you have some more time give me a call Trev.

Brad
20th January 2018, 08:44 AM
The knowledge and generosity of the members here never ceases to amaze me. Well done Autosteve

Brad

thejudge
18th August 2018, 02:27 PM
IT'S FINALLY FINISHED :) :041:

134451

134452

134453

I only have to get the ball count light divider and the score cards and that's it.

Thanks for all the help along the way, it's been a long time restoring this one and I have learnt a lot.

There are original parts left like the apron and the chrome parts, but all the rest is new.
There is cupping on the inserts but not much I can do about that since the playfield has Mylar, I just raised the back legs a bit and you don't even notice.

I also managed to get some score reels, from a Lawman parts pin as fate would have it.

One last curve ball it gave me today was the playfield glass.
I had a nice sheet ready to replace the original one, but it didn't fit as the original one is slightly shorter ?
But all good, I just cleaned it up as best I could and it looks fine.

thejudge
20th August 2018, 08:49 AM
I have been having a few games and it's a challenging game and I have only managed to clock it once so far.

I have made a few minor adjustments here and there but the thing I didn't notice before is that I have the wrong top apron.

134513

The ball stop on the right side is too low and the ball got stuck. I'm looking into how to fix that now?

illawarra_steelers
20th August 2018, 09:18 AM
maybe my fault there. send me a reminder friday night and I'll bring along the spares i have (would say it has been mixed up)

thejudge
20th August 2018, 09:19 PM
Just a quick note.

I was originally thinking about selling this pin after I finished the restore as I had no room for it and wasn't sure if I liked it, I even had a few people already wanting to buy it, but after playing it for a few days I'm really enjoying it. So I have changed my mind on selling it and it's going to be a keeper for now.

I was also worried that the flippers would be too weak because it was originally hacked to use DC, but after my rebuild of the flippers with all new parts, they are nice and strong and I'm having no problems hitting the shots.

It's like a new pin day and I'm a happy camper :)