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John73
11th February 2016, 07:25 PM
Greetings one and all.

For those that didn't see the thread in the main MGL forum, we are going to run MGL 27 shortly. First will be the Kong Off, and then the MGL probably 2 weeks later. So give it a good 6 weeks at least before we start.

Gives us plenty of time to discuss anything you like or don't like about how the MGL has been run recently or how it was run going WAYYYY back.

Any changes you think that might freshen it up? or if you like how it's currently run we can stick with that.

Nomination of games - what you do prefer? We've tried lots of ways in the past, from random selection, to popular vote etc. What games should be excluded from nomination - those played in the last MGL, last 2 MGLs, last year?

Do you like the current % scoring system? Do you like the Formula-1 style scoring system?

How many games do we play? Do you want more, do you want less? Does the current overlapping system work where we introduce a new game each week but play all games from Fri until the Sunday night 2 weeks later?

Anyway, go for it. Plenty of time to discuss and agree/disagree with each other. No idea is a bad idea.

Jed
11th February 2016, 08:26 PM
good to see you back in the MGL saddle John73, are you going to run it again ?

Personally, the format of late in MGL has kind of put me off being a regular competitor even though I would really like to.... plus a pinball habit has got in the way I admit :)

(puts on old-fart hat) I like the way we used to play, 1 game, everyone plays it for two weeks, game ends on a sunday night, new game is posted. GIves you time to really get stuck into one title, really learn it, rather than trying to learn 2, or sometimes 3 games at once. I think for people who have the time on their hands multiple games is fine... but if you don't have as much time, due to work or family time hours, then it makes it harder to get into.

As for the scoring system, I think Fire_Power posted a long while ago a really good analysis of both the % and the racing system, and showed that outcomes are very similar using both. My vote would be for the % system, as this is a fairer system nowadays, that the MGL has grown so much from the 5-10 players we had in the early days to the 20+ now, it just makes more sense to use the % system.

I'd love to play, but would like to see a simpler, stripped back MGL. just my 2c.

John73
11th February 2016, 08:58 PM
good to see you back in the MGL saddle John73, are you going to run it again ?



I'll run it again this time. But my lack of playing in the last couple of MGL's should show that I'm sorta on a break, would really prefer someone who is right into it to run it. If anyone wants to stick their hand, then please do and they can run the next one, two or however many. It does look simple, but as you, me and others have found by running them, there is a fair commitment involved in doing it properly.

As to your other comments about the games being played 1 at a time over two weeks, we'll agree to disagree I guess. The thing I hated most about playing 1 game at a time is that you'd get games that you absolutely loathed playing (yes I'm look at you Crush Roller fans) and then you have Jack Schit to do for 2 weeks. I should add that I like the Friday night start, and Sunday finish 2 weeks later - it gives you three full weekends to play a game. And for most of us that are time poor, it means 6 days of gaming when we are not generally working.

I should also mention that I PM'ed OOO about doing another great MGL banner for us, and he has thankfully said he would as well as providing prizes. I really liked the idea of providing a prize for only those people who submitted a score for all games. A pet irk of mine in my time running and playing of the MGL was members who nominated games and then didn't play 1 single game. I think I've floated this idea before, and maybe it got shot down - but what say you are not allowed to nominate a games unless you've played in one of the last 1-3 MGL's and submitted or score. The exception being if you are new player who has never played an MGL, then we give you the benefit of the doubt and let you nominate. No one is asking people to play and submit everyday - this is a fun competition, and if you can't find the time in a 2 week period to have a 5 minute game then..... well.... Not saying everyone has to play and submit every game, just don't nominate your games if you have no interest in really competing. :)

Barra
11th February 2016, 09:18 PM
A % scoring system definitely complements a contest with a gradual reveal of the games, rather than posting the full list. Makes you play it as you don't know how much it will mean in the long run (you can still get a fair idea I guess - Puzzle Bobble comes to mind)

Good example is the Yolympics going on at the moment - The games list is there from Day 1 until the end, and a F1 ranking system is used. % = gradual reveal, F1 = list revealed straight away. My opinion anyway :)

I'd be happy going with the "old school" system of a game every 2 weeks. Every MGL I've been a part of has been fantastic, so anything similar to those would be fine.
Having said that, I'm not going to complain if it was completely revamped, as its all for fun anyway.

:)

Foot
12th February 2016, 12:03 AM
Well,

I may change my mind after the Shiraz wears off

8 games - no noms from the past 2 MGl's
Everyone nominates 4 games, from that pool 4 games are chosen randomly, one each in weeks 1,3,5,7. No popular vote!
Everyone also nominates their favorite genre, MGL Mod then picks a game at random from the most popular genre for each of the weeks 2,4,6,8.
New game every Friday
Each runs for 2 weeks.
Scoring - I have been a fan of % but time for a change. Lets go some form of F1 - 25 for the winner decreasing by 1 point down to 1 points- everyone gets at least 1 point. Sure this discourages high scores and rewards for those who excel at a particular game but why not. I don't bother playing much if the leader has 1,000,000 and the next 10 players have 100,000. If the winner gets 100 points and the rest get 10 points then whoopie, but if the winner gets 25 and the next 10 battle it out for between 15 and 24 then alright! tighter the better (yes I know we have reviewed the stats, but what the hey)
If you nominate a game and it gets selected but you don't submit a score then a 25 point penalty is incurred, 100 point if % system used

What a about an MGL Wild Card Game. Each person nominates one extra game, no restrictions, most popular game gets played for the entire MGL - same scoring system but with 5 bonus points for the winner (F1, % 20 points, i.e. 20% of total game score)

Example Nomination would be

4 games: Atomic Robo Kid, Crush Roller, Kangaroo, Space Invaders
Genre: Shooter Vert
Wild Card: Tetris

Carry on :cheers:

JustAnotherRat
12th February 2016, 10:51 AM
I hope to play all games (not the Kong Off as I am crap at it).

We could use the V8 Supercars scoring system, which no one in the world actually understands.

I will go along with whatever is decided as I can see merit in all suggestions but when using the percentage system and someone posts a massive score on a game I am less likely to give it a decent go as it doesn't matter if I go up places as much as my points won't really change much.

bondy
12th February 2016, 11:09 AM
Thanks for organising John73!

You probably know that I'm a pretty casual competitor - I never score highly, and I never qualify for OOO's prizes because I never play all the games. But I love playing new games and the vibe of all of you. It's a good excuse to play my MAME machine.

I like the general format and don't mind if it's an exclusive game for two weeks or the current overlap. For me it's hard to maintain enthusiasm for all 8 games, but take that with a grain of salt from this minor competitor.

I particularly enjoy the stories from when you all played the original hardware at the local milk bar. I grew up in the SNES era instead. So, keep them coming!

Rat
12th February 2016, 01:34 PM
Nice post Bondy :) yeah that's the spirit of the MGL IMHO.....I used to play to win but now I'm lucky if I get to play at all. The last mini comp I wrote all the games down and went downstairs and put them on my cabs and played a couple of games a couple of times, I checked some of the scores and some of the conversations but I don't think I actually posted a score. Bit slack of me but I have been distracted by a new pin and I only have very limited gaming time available.

For me the best part is that playing the MGL games is a shared experience, even if it is in a virtual way, I know that others are playing the same games as me and that I can share my gameplay experience or my BITD experience with someone who cares :cool:

So I can't guarantee I will play all the next MGL games, but I will make a real effort to play some.

I have a slight preference for the overlap games style, but don't really mind, prefer Moto style scoring but don't mind if it swaps and changes, I know it's been discussed to death but IMO Moto can keep the gap closer towards the end of comp, thus not necessarily being fairer or more representative but keeping enthusiastic competition going rather than having a clear winner earlier.

As far as noms and nom selection goes, anyone who doesn't know my preferences there in full detail must have only just joined the MGL, welcome :)

Jed
12th February 2016, 04:56 PM
prefer Moto style scoring but don't mind if it swaps and changes, I know it's been discussed to death but IMO Moto can keep the gap closer towards the end of comp, thus not necessarily being fairer or more representative but keeping enthusiastic competition going rather than having a clear winner earlier.


yes... and this was exactly why we we introduced the moto scoring system way back, cause it made the comp closer. this is a very good point Rat, mgl these days has some truly world class players....Even though the percentage system guarantees everyone at least some points in a larger field of players, the moto system may well 'even the field' in the long term.

Foot's suggestions were all awesome, the wildcard idea is a beauty.

Barra
12th February 2016, 06:44 PM
After reading some comments I'm inclined to support the F1-type scoring system for a change. I don't remember being a part of an MGL that used it, so could be a nice change.

Jed
14th February 2016, 01:29 AM
After reading some comments I'm inclined to support the F1-type scoring system for a change. I don't remember being a part of an MGL that used it, so could be a nice change.

looked back and your first MGL was MGL18, that was the first year the % system came in after vote, after the racing points finished being used.

the thing is the same players will still be top of the ladder... it will not change the idea of perform well and rise to the top....but a single game can make a big difference in points, if the comp is close. i reckon that's a good thing?

John73
14th February 2016, 07:08 PM
I should also mention that I PM'ed OOO about doing another great MGL banner for us, and he has thankfully said he would as well as providing prizes. I really liked the idea of providing a prize for only those people who submitted a score for all games.

Just to clarify for everyone, I misread what OOO said to me in a PM, what he was talking about was the trophy icons for 1st 2nd and 3rd. If anyone wishes to donate a prize for the competition then feel free too, but it's not necessary. I may look at doing something, but don't count on it :)

Been away all weekend, need to go back through and read everyone's suggestions tonight and try and get the KO happening with rules/start dates. Stay tuned.

- - - Updated - - -



What a about an MGL Wild Card Game. Each person nominates one extra game, no restrictions, most popular game gets played for the entire MGL - same scoring system but with 5 bonus points for the winner (F1, % 20 points, i.e. 20% of total game score)


Not exactly sure I understand what you are saying - so if Tetris was the bonus game, we play it 8 weeks - does the winner get 30 pts instead of 25 if we are using a modified F1 scoring system.

The idea about Wild Card games has come up before, and I like the idea - but doing it right would be key. There was a suggestion way back where everyone could nominate a wild card game for themselves to get bonus points, but you would have to nominate which game you were using it on before submitting a score. Meaning if you didn't use it in the first 6 games, you'd really be hoping game 7 or 8 was more to your liking.

I am inclined with other to at least give the old system a go but I do prefer the modified system of 25 down to 1, not the F1 system where it goes 25, 20, 15, 14 or whatever it was. We have been having games in the MGL where 20 or more play at the beginning, pretty discouraging if you are new and constantly score 0 pts even though you are playing all the games.

- - - Updated - - -


looked back and your first MGL was MGL18, that was the first year the % system came in after vote, after the racing points finished being used.

the thing is the same players will still be top of the ladder... it will not change the idea of perform well and rise to the top....but a single game can make a big difference in points, if the comp is close. i reckon that's a good thing?

It's 6 of one and half a dozen of the other :)

The other way to possibly make the % system work better would be only to include 6 of your 8 scores - your top score and bottom score are dropped - sort of how they do it in the diving events in the Olympics.

The other idea would be to have rankings for players and then apply handicaps - but then it becomes very messy. Running and MGL is time consuming enough for something that is just for fun :)

Anyway, looks like will go with slightly modified F1 system this time and see how it goes.

So 25 for 1st, 24 for 2nd etc. etc. 1 for 25th

If everyone is happy with that, then I'll lock that in.

Any further comments/suggestions regarding the nomination process?

Barra
14th February 2016, 07:20 PM
I'm happy with that scoring system. Keeps it closer as well = more fun

Jed
14th February 2016, 08:14 PM
I am inclined with other to at least give the old system a go but I do prefer the modified system of 25 down to 1, not the F1 system where it goes 25, 20, 15, 14 or whatever it was. We have been having games in the MGL where 20 or more play at the beginning, pretty discouraging if you are new and constantly score 0 pts even though you are playing all the games.

So 25 for 1st, 24 for 2nd etc. etc. 1 for 25th

If everyone is happy with that, then I'll lock that in.


Where's the incentive to win ? if you only gain 1 point over 2nd place.... better would be to provide a carrot for the winner, and a proper prize, ie:

25 points - win
20 - second
then places 19-1 points as per position gained

that still guarantees points for 21 players and that is on average about what you'll get over the course of a comp.

Also, if you want to do something about people nominating and not playing.... taking an example from retroleague in the UK, if you haven't submitted a score in the previous played game and your nomination comes up, it gets passed over and another picked. easily solved.

But then again as Barra said, 25-1 placing per points would make for a nice close contest, that is also a good thing!

Game on :)

Batfink
15th February 2016, 10:53 AM
Firstly thanks to John73 for sticking your hand up, i missed out on playing anything over Christmas due to my garage being flooded, so this will at least force me to tidy things back up and clean the bench :)

As a newbie to this I can't say i really have an opinion on the scoring or noms as my experience is non existent although getting towards the end of the last couple of MGL's my patience with learning new games has waned when i don't like the game and any score i submit is going to have little effect on my end result. So i can see merits with all suggestions.

I think the points scoring system sounds better than the %of system because i notice if one player has posted a new amazingly high score on a game there is little point in personally trying to improve for that extra % or two tops whereas with the points per place you are actually competing with those scoring close to you.

Is it worth taking the scores from the last MGL and recalculating them for each of the suggested methods for a direct comparison to see what results would have looked like ?

whoops it looks like i had an opinion after all....bugger it.

John73
15th February 2016, 09:30 PM
Is it worth taking the scores from the last MGL and recalculating them for each of the suggested methods for a direct comparison to see what results would have looked like ?


Fire_Power (I think it was???) did a fairly long and exhaustive test over a couple of MGL's comparing the two variations - and the end result was that very little changed between the two systems.

But yes, the score blow out when someone posts a massive score is a bit frustrating under the % system. I'm as crap as the next person at most games, and I do see the frustration at busting your gut only to improve your overall score from 5% to 5.5% when a game has been blown apart by one or two people.

- - - Updated - - -


Where's the incentive to win ? if you only gain 1 point over 2nd place.... better would be to provide a carrot for the winner, and a proper prize, ie:

25 points - win
20 - second
then places 19-1 points as per position gained

that still guarantees points for 21 players and that is on average about what you'll get over the course of a comp.

Also, if you want to do something about people nominating and not playing.... taking an example from retroleague in the UK, if you haven't submitted a score in the previous played game and your nomination comes up, it gets passed over and another picked. easily solved.

But then again as Barra said, 25-1 placing per points would make for a nice close contest, that is also a good thing!

Game on :)

I do see your point about only getting 1 more point for winning the game over the 2nd place person. But on the flip side, if you get 5 more points than the 2nd place person as in the true F1 points system, then it can leave you with a little bit of complacency I guess in later games. Barra is right, it should in theory make for a closer finish. Time will tell.

We'll do the 25 down to 1 this time around, and if it's an utter failure and everyone wants change, then we'll change it again.

DKong
1st April 2016, 03:34 PM
How about a leaderboard thread where the excel spreadsheet is linked. Then discussion on the positions
can be all in one place.

John73
1st April 2016, 03:51 PM
How about a leaderboard thread where the excel spreadsheet is linked. Then discussion on the positions
can be all in one place.

One of many things I'm trying to get around to doing... will get it done shortly with any luck.

camaro
1st April 2016, 04:41 PM
One of many things I'm trying to get around to doing... will get it done shortly with any luck.

I found by doing it myself at home made me try a little harder when I did the sums and saw how close I was to the next position on the ladder.

danny_galaga
5th April 2016, 05:29 PM
I have read here that when it comes to scoring, percentage or 'F1 style' doesn't generally affect your ranking. However, it seems to me it would be easier for the scorers to do the F1 system. Seems like less work for the same end result.

camaro
5th April 2016, 05:43 PM
I have read here that when it comes to scoring, percentage or 'F1 style' doesn't generally affect your ranking. However, it seems to me it would be easier for the scorers to do the F1 system. Seems like less work for the same end result.

Up for debate/discussion at the end of this MGL. In the meantime.....

Barra
5th April 2016, 05:52 PM
It just depends on the games and who is playing, re: the final rankings.

Excel should do all the work for % system :)