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Shimple
20th August 2014, 12:00 PM
Howdy,

Just plugged in my (serviced and cleaned) chassis after finishing off the restore of my machine. This is what i get.

68019

68020

I have noticed that the h.Hold dial is a little loose, when i tried to adjust it.

Any ideas/recommendations?

Shimple
20th August 2014, 02:31 PM
Just to add a little more info. It worked the first time i plugged it in, however after i played a game for about 15 mins the lines would appear. I could only get it back to working by rebooting everything and starting up again. It then would work again for 15mins then go back to horizontal lines again. Now all i get is horizontal lines.

Shimple
20th August 2014, 03:50 PM
Hey Leo,

Thanks for quick reply.

Yes this is a Mame setup.

The image is scrambled like in pic from PC start up all the way to launching and running a game. However wasn't like that at the beginning, it has got progressively worse, and now like this every time i boot up.

I plugged PC into a normal monitor and displays menu fine. That should rule out a card issue right?

Sorry i am a bit of a N00b.

blontic
20th August 2014, 04:47 PM
Chiming in :) the video is running through a JPAC @ 15hz

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

namastepat
20th August 2014, 04:50 PM
The J-PAC will prevent anything higher than a 15khz signal from damaging the monitor, but it is not a scan converter and will not convert a 31khz to 15khz. How is the video card running at 15khz? Software such a CRT_EMU or hardware such an an AVGA?

namastepat
20th August 2014, 06:19 PM
I'm no expert, simply asking what the software/hardware interface is.

blontic
20th August 2014, 06:34 PM
The J-PAC will prevent anything higher than a 15khz signal from damaging the monitor, but it is not a scan converter and will not convert a 31khz to 15khz. How is the video card running at 15khz? Software such a CRT_EMU or hardware such an an AVGA?

It's using CRT_EmuDriver.

Jomac
21st August 2014, 02:13 AM
dragonlee is correct , the only way you can safely use an MS8 Nanao is to delay powering the monitor until the MAME has fully loaded , it's all the odd frequency changes that happen during bootup that damages these chassis , in this case the Hybrid Sync module is damaged , they are not available as a spare part so need to be repaired.
If you keep running it when this tearing starts to happen it will eventually go out of it's safe Horizontal frequency range and self destruct.

namastepat
21st August 2014, 08:34 AM
Jomac, this is very interesting to know. I have a Nanao MS8 (not sure of the exact model) that I use as a monitor in a Model 2 emulator driving cabinet. Thus far, I've never had an issue. It runs through a J-PAC and boots fine into a 24khz 1024x768 interlaced windows desktop. I then run Model 2 and 3 games at their native res of 496x384.

Should I be waiting for the PC to boot into a stable windows desktop before I turn on the monitor? That's easy enough for me to do, and if you think I should not be displaying the boot screens (even when scrambled through a J-PAC) I would like to know.

Thanks.

blontic
21st August 2014, 09:15 AM
dragonlee is correct , the only way you can safely use an MS8 Nanao is to delay powering the monitor until the MAME has fully loaded , it's all the odd frequency changes that happen during bootup that damages these chassis , in this case the Hybrid Sync module is damaged , they are not available as a spare part so need to be repaired.
If you keep running it when this tearing starts to happen it will eventually go out of it's safe Horizontal frequency range and self destruct.

Thanks for the update JOMAC. Just wondering when using groovymame through a JPAC the resolution does change for each game to the native game res, but the JPAC stops any unsafe frequencies. If the resolution keeps changing every time you change game would that also be an issue? or is it just the crazy bios screen? The JPAC will stop unsafe BIOS resolutions getting to the screen, that's why it's used.

I am guessing you are not talking about unsafe higher resolutions but just horizontal frequency changes in general with a MS8.

Would a better investment be to try find a 26" screen and use one of your chassis? from memory your chassis doesn't support these MS8 screens

thanks.

Jomac
21st August 2014, 02:46 PM
These monitors are great and fine to use as long as the everything has finished stabilizing before the power is switched on , it seems to be that most have failed during the bios screen but plenty more have died from soft15k.
It's the frequency changes they are not designed for that causes the damage , the games they were designed for are Xtal locked to a set frequency that never changes , I don't recall this problem ever happening with these when used on a genuine arcade board.

lordsnipe
21st August 2014, 03:08 PM
If the jumpers are set correctly, the JPAC should be halving/filtering out 25K and 31K frequencies from power on, that's why the BIOS and boot screens will typically be doubled.

http://www.ultimarc.com/jpac2.html

Can be set to divide line frequency by two so as to display a stableVGA picture on an arcade monitor for test purposes. (actually displays two pictures side by side)



I plugged PC into a normal monitor and displays menu fine. That should rule out a card issue right?


This sounds to me that although you have CRT Emudriver installed, you actually haven't setup and run vmmaker which will then set the driver into 15K mode? If you plug in a VGA monitor in a working CRT Emudriver system, you get no sync after BIOS/Windows bootup.

namastepat
21st August 2014, 03:10 PM
Good to know, Jomac I will wait until after boot and the J-PAC syncs until I switch my monitor on. The monitor is a beautiful monitor and I would hate for it to die.

When you say some have been killed by soft15k, do you know how exactly? The way CRT_EMU works is that as soon as Windows boots, it gets a stable image. The only time the image is unstable is when it is booting through bios, before the driver loads.

When using GroovyMAME, each game will change to a different res when it boots, could this also lead to undue stress on the chassis? None of the resolutions are outside of a standard 15k range of course, that's kind of the whole point of GroovyMAME. I assume that these kinds of resolution switches would not do any long term damage?

I only use mine for model 2, when Windows boots, it's 1024x768 interlaced, which is a 24khz res and perfectly stable (if flickery) due to the interlacing. However, when games boot, they boot into 496x384, their native Model 2 res. I also assume that this kind of res switching would be OK?

Sorry for all the questions, but I never knew that this monitor was an issue with MAME and the likes and want to make sure I do not kill it.

Jomac
22nd August 2014, 02:25 AM
The MS8 has a very tight frequency band in 15K mode , absolute min of 15.450khz and Max of 16.050Khz , optimal is 15.750Khz , it also has a tight vertical range between 54Hz and 60Hz.

When ever they are operated outside of this range there is push and pull amplifier ( part of the little Hybrid Sync Module )that attempts to clamp the frequencies within the safe range , so if it is being run and absolute min or max listed above the amplifier / clamping section is working at maximum , if you exceed these limits these chassis most of the time are able to cope when the chassis is in perfect working condition.
I have measure on a CRO watching all sorts of Mame setups that are supposed to be blocking everything outside of 15K but at startup before there is even anything displayed I have seen anywhere from 13K to 17K before they settle to somewhere in the 15K range.

By no means am I saying don't use these monitors , I am only stating that 99% of all the failures I see with the Sync section on these are from machines running mame of some description.
There is no gradual or accumulative damage , they just work as normal and suddenly fail as with the chassis in this thread.

blontic
22nd August 2014, 01:48 PM
The MS8 has a very tight frequency band in 15K mode , absolute min of 15.450khz and Max of 16.050Khz , optimal is 15.750Khz , it also has a tight vertical range between 54Hz and 60Hz.

When ever they are operated outside of this range there is push and pull amplifier ( part of the little Hybrid Sync Module )that attempts to clamp the frequencies within the safe range , so if it is being run and absolute min or max listed above the amplifier / clamping section is working at maximum , if you exceed these limits these chassis most of the time are able to cope when the chassis is in perfect working condition.
I have measure on a CRO watching all sorts of Mame setups that are supposed to be blocking everything outside of 15K but at startup before there is even anything displayed I have seen anywhere from 13K to 17K before they settle to somewhere in the 15K range.

By no means am I saying don't use these monitors , I am only stating that 99% of all the failures I see with the Sync section on these are from machines running mame of some description.
There is no gradual or accumulative damage , they just work as normal and suddenly fail as with the chassis in this thread.

Thanks for the reply, great to get some details on the MS8 (doesn't seem to be much around). I am guessing my below settings are wrong because you are saying a different vertical freq range. Do you have the manual available to confirm any of these other settings?

HfreqMin-HfreqMax, VfreqMin-VfreqMax, HFrontPorch, HSyncPulse, HBackPorch, VfrontPorch, VSyncPulse, VBackPorch, HSyncPol, VSyncPol, ProgressiveLinesMin, ProgressiveLinesMax, InterlacedLinesMin, InterlacedLinesMax

15450-16050, 50-65, 3.910, 4.700, 6.850, 0.190, 0.191, 1.018, 0, 0, 192, 288, 448, 576

I'm guessing the vertical range should be like this instead. Just not sure about the stuff in Bold
15450-16050, 54-60, 3.910, 4.700, 6.850, 0.190, 0.191, 1.018, 0, 0, 192, 288, 448, 576

Rat
23rd August 2014, 09:39 PM
dragonlee is correct , the only way you can safely use an MS8 Nanao is to delay powering the monitor until the MAME has fully loaded , it's all the odd frequency changes that happen during bootup that damages these chassis , in this case the Hybrid Sync module is damaged , they are not available as a spare part so need to be repaired.
If you keep running it when this tearing starts to happen it will eventually go out of it's safe Horizontal frequency range and self destruct.

WOW...... thanks for this info dragonlee and Jomac.....I have two MS8 Nanao running Groovymame and I thought that the J-PAC was protection enough, but I will certainly be turning my monitors off during boot up from now on.

So you say wait until mame has fully loaded before turning the monitor on, is that just to do with the PC boot process or to do with mame? After the PC has booted is it safe for me to exit mame (I use the MaLa frontend) and use windows on the monitor and then restart mame? I also have mine set up to go to a screensaver after 20mins of no input, is that ok?

orio1
24th August 2014, 09:55 PM
This cleared up a few clouds for me cheers !...

xga
25th August 2014, 12:54 AM
The MS8 has a very tight frequency band in 15K mode , absolute min of 15.450khz and Max of 16.050Khz , optimal is 15.750Khz , it also has a tight vertical range between 54Hz and 60Hz.

When ever they are operated outside of this range there is push and pull amplifier ( part of the little Hybrid Sync Module )that attempts to clamp the frequencies within the safe range , so if it is being run and absolute min or max listed above the amplifier / clamping section is working at maximum , if you exceed these limits these chassis most of the time are able to cope when the chassis is in perfect working condition.
I have measure on a CRO watching all sorts of Mame setups that are supposed to be blocking everything outside of 15K but at startup before there is even anything displayed I have seen anywhere from 13K to 17K before they settle to somewhere in the 15K range.

By no means am I saying don't use these monitors , I am only stating that 99% of all the failures I see with the Sync section on these are from machines running mame of some description.
There is no gradual or accumulative damage , they just work as normal and suddenly fail as with the chassis in this thread.

Some really interesting information here, Jomac. Thanks.

From what I understand, some of the Nanao chassis' have a built-in protection circuit. I'm guessing that it's not quite perfect or was never designed in mind with the intentions of Windows / Mame set-ups.

Would you know if there exists some sort of interceptor device that sits between the video signal of the source and the monitor to block out frequencies lower than 15.450khz and higher than 16.050khz? Tri syncs would benefit from being blocked outside of 15.450khz and 32khz.

All I have been able to find are a few arcade monitor interface circuits http://members.optusnet.com.au/eviltim/vga2arc/vga2arc.htm that include a horizontal frequency protection function. Would be interested to know if there is anything off the shelf that exists.

Jomac
25th August 2014, 02:45 AM
I doubt there would be anything off the shelf available , you have to keep in mind that most monitors have a wider tolerance than this model Nanao so it's not often an issue, , I have never seen a genuine arcade game run outside the recommended working range unless it's faulty, so the market for such a device is pretty limited to the home / hobbyist market.

berzerker
30th August 2014, 12:49 PM
Hey Joey, back in 2012 I had my astro city chassis overhauled by youself, I used to just run a SFII board in it but im now looking at moving my mame setup into it, i found this thread and now im concerned that my chassis is a MS8-26SE, at the moment without pulling the whole chassis out ive only been able to find the following marking on the chassis NANAO 05A00362G1 in your expert opinion should I proceed with mame (put the monitor power on a seperate switch and turn on after a few minutes) or abandon and stick with genuine boards?

Rat
30th August 2014, 04:00 PM
The Astro has a power switch at the back of the cab which I now keep switched off when not in use. Then I can turn on the power point to turn on the PC and when it finishes booting I turn on the cab. I am hoping that doing that will keep me reasonably safe from failure, but I will be interested to hear Joey's comments. I think he sort of said that would be safe earlier in the thread, or perhaps just safer? There must be MANY of these cabs running mame and I don't hear of them failing every day, but after much searching I found two posts online that are possibly due to this. I assume that means it can happen but is low risk especially if cab is off while booting.

Jomac
31st August 2014, 06:34 AM
Guys I'm not really sure how many other ways I can say this, I think I have more than made it clear that anything non genuine can and often does damage the MS8-26 and MS8-29 models ,( Not MS9 ) having the power off during boot up helps a lot but is not a guarantee.
People not posting on forums about this problem is no indication at all that this isn't a very common problem , it simply means that people don't always post about the faults they have before sending them over or getting them repaired , I have literally lost count of how of these I get with Sync and other related faults caused by PC's and Multigame boards.
There are plenty running non genuine games that seem to be indestructible but as I have mentioned I have never seen these sync modules damaged with running a genuine arcade board.

Rat
31st August 2014, 06:49 AM
But, but......... :(
This makes me sad, I have gone to much trouble and expense to purchase and set up two Astro mame cabs, I really enjoy them and want them to last forever.

Someone asked earlier if your universal chassis (which I assume would resolve this issue) could be built to suit the MS8 but you didn't cover this I don't think @Jomac (http://www.aussiearcade.com/member.php?u=204)? if they could then an option for me might be to buy two of them and sell the chassis' I have now to Dragonlee so he can use them as spares for cabs he does up?

narf_
31st August 2014, 11:09 AM
Maybe replace the tube with a TV tube rat?

29 inch are dime a dozen still just gotta find the right curve

Rat
31st August 2014, 02:44 PM
I already have 2x 29" TV's that I have collected for spares in the hope I would never need them. WTF........The "right curve" ahhhhhh nobody told me that the curve could be wrong, I think I'm going to cry. I hate this thread, you guys are all big meanies picking on me :(

narf_
31st August 2014, 02:47 PM
ah just recall the somewhere the curve is different on some candy cabs but i cant confirm as ive never owned one

Rat
31st August 2014, 03:11 PM
Bugger this, I'm going to play Circus Charlie, it will probably blow up and kill me, good bye cruel world.

Jomac
31st August 2014, 05:01 PM
Someone asked earlier if your universal chassis (which I assume would resolve this issue) could be built to suit the MS8 but you didn't cover this I don't think @Jomac (http://www.aussiearcade.com/member.php?u=204)? if they could then an option for me might be to buy two of them and sell the chassis' I have now to Dragonlee so he can use them as spares for cabs he does up?

My chassis isn't an option on the original MS8 tube , there is no replacement chassis available to suit these tubes they are a one of.
Don't worry even these chassis do fail they can be repaired so it's not the end of the world :)

Rat
31st August 2014, 05:23 PM
Long live Jomac..............for if he moves on all is lost forever.

Rat
31st August 2014, 06:16 PM
If only I knew where to purchase two such desirable chassis in good reliable order from a kind and honest man who might even fit them for me ? ;)

Shimple
1st September 2014, 08:20 AM
Don't worry even these chassis do fail they can be repaired so it's not the end of the world :)

Expressed posted it back to you last Thursday, so you should have it today.

Jomac
2nd September 2014, 03:22 AM
Expressed posted it back to you last Thursday, so you should have it today.

I think it turned up this afternoon so will be onto it in the morning :)

Morty Moose
2nd September 2014, 08:49 AM
I know f all about current mame setups but I see the problem from everyone trying to save a buck and let software drive a video card at 15k.
I have sold at least 50 2000 in 1 game boards installed into cabinets with a 26" Nanao. I have one my self in my own house. Never had an issue.

Wouldn't using a proper arcadeVGA card stop this issue.

blontic
2nd September 2014, 11:40 AM
I know f all about current mame setups but I see the problem from everyone trying to save a buck and let software drive a video card at 15k.
I have sold at least 50 2000 in 1 game boards installed into cabinets with a 26" Nanao. I have one my self in my own house. Never had an issue.

Wouldn't using a proper arcadeVGA card stop this issue.

Most of us use a JPAC which should stop any unsafe frequencies getting to the chassis/screen. I think the issue is the MS8 has a very tight range.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

Shimple
2nd September 2014, 12:21 PM
I think it turned up this afternoon so will be onto it in the morning :)

Sweet

Shimple
18th September 2014, 09:51 AM
This is becoming frustrating...another issue. Was playing last night and as I was killing off boss 4 in wonder boy this happened...

69251

Game still plays in background with sound etc.

Since getting it back last time, I have followed your advice and have only turned the screen on after the PC and hyperspin has booted, I use the sound to work out when this is the case.

What to do Jomac?

theMot
18th September 2014, 02:20 PM
It's almost like the cab takes revenge on you for using multi boards and mame. I lovei t! :lol

Rat
18th September 2014, 04:02 PM
Come on theMot show some compassion, the poor man can't play his games!

Shimple I think you should be investigating the suggestions in post #17 (http://www.aussiearcade.com/usertag.php?do=list&action=hash&hash=17) of this thread.

Morty Moose
18th September 2014, 07:47 PM
I think allowing software to run 15k monitors you are asking for trouble no matter what.
Software fails all the time..

I reckon pc video cards are causing proplems with you chassis's... on or off after the software has started up
Is there an issue with the current arcadevga cards ???? Why are people not using them..... Too tight??

blontic
18th September 2014, 07:49 PM
People use a JPAC which does the same thing. Only allows 15khz to the chassis.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

namastepat
18th September 2014, 07:51 PM
We use CRT_EMU as it actually gives better results and more resolutions and modelines than AVGA. I have no issues with CRT_EMU causing problems with any of my 15khz monitors, a Nanao MS8 included (although I run it at 24khz)

I have an AVGA in one of my cabs, and two CRT_EMU setups.

blontic
18th September 2014, 07:52 PM
We use CRT_EMU as it actually gives better results and more resolutions and modelines than AVGA. I have no issues with CRT_EMU causing problems with any of my 15khz monitors, a Nanao MS8 included (although I run it at 24khz)

I have an AVGA in one of my cabs, and two CRT_EMU setups.

Yep I also use a JPAC and CRT_EMU, same as shimple. Better then a AVGA.

lordsnipe
18th September 2014, 08:05 PM
If the sync led on the jpac is blinking away then it could be a dodgy jpac. I had one which would drop sync. I bought it "new" on eBay. Swapped it with one from another cab and it was fine so I sent an email to Andy. Turns out to be an old model. I ended up replacing it.

Shimple
25th September 2014, 11:21 AM
Checked jpac - pic below.

69609

Shimple
26th September 2014, 07:38 PM
On its way Joey..

Will check all earths and also do a thorough clean as advised.

Hats of to you for helping me sort my issues and more importantly your willingness to solve the root cause. Real customer service cant be taught, you either get it or you don't. You my friend, helped write the book :)

Ok enough off that fuzzy stuff - :unsure.. You should receive it on Monday.

Shimple
22nd October 2014, 07:20 PM
All sorted thanks to Jomac..been running for a few weeks now and I am chuffed to have a working machine. Thanks to all for your guidance and patience.

As Cameron Fry would say...Jomac your my hero!!!!

theMot
3rd March 2018, 03:56 PM
Necro bump!

Is this an issue with the MS9 too or just MS8? Ms9 can run 24khz too via switching jumpers so has a wider range for error I assume?

Jomac
4th March 2018, 06:05 PM
Not a problem at all with the MS9 , but you can still cause the horizontal drive to go out of spec and blow the horizontal output.
Dual res chassis don't support between 15K and 24K , they support 15K or 24K as separate functions just like the MS8 series, it's not this ability that decides operating tolerance it's purely by design , all Nanao and Japanese chassis are specifically designed to operate with genuine arcade games produced by the major game manufacturers , Namco , Sega, etc .
Mame, multi games etc are not factored into any manufacturers designs.

theMot
5th March 2018, 09:29 AM
Not a problem at all with the MS9 , but you can still cause the horizontal drive to go out of spec and blow the horizontal output..

If that happens to the MS9 is it fixable or pretty much have to bin the chassis?

Rat
5th March 2018, 09:55 AM
I have two Astro cabs with MS-8 / Jpac / Groovymame and I just keep the cabs turned off until the PC is fully booted and same in reverse turn the cab off first then the PC. I have been doing that for a few years now with no problems, I don't find it much of a hassle knowing that I am better protecting my hardware doing it.

There is also the ATOM-15 software from Calamity that forces your video card to boot in 15khz, but I have not tried to instal that yet, sort of thinking if my process works then why stuff with it and risk some incompatibility issue with my card or some other problem. Not sure if I would be able to totally trust ATOM-15 enough to rely on it and I don't need to see the bootup anyway. If I need to see my PC boot up I just plug it into my old CRT PC monitor.

Does anyone else here rely on ATOM-15 for chassis protection from incorrect res?

See ATOM-15 thread here http://geedorah.com/eiusdemmodi/forum/viewtopic.php?id=64

namastepat
5th March 2018, 10:15 AM
I have two Astro cabs with MS-8 / Jpac / Groovymame and I just keep the cabs turned off until the PC is fully booted and same in reverse turn the cab off first then the PC. I have been doing that for a few years now with no problems, I don't find it much of a hassle knowing that I am better protecting my hardware doing it.

This is exactly what I do, turn on, wait until it syncs, then power on monitor. Works well and no issues at my end.

buttersoft
5th March 2018, 01:00 PM
Does anyone else here rely on ATOM-15 for chassis protection from incorrect res?

See ATOM-15 thread here http://geedorah.com/eiusdemmodi/forum/viewtopic.php?id=64

Yup, 100%. I've flashed 4 different cards (4350, 4890, 6870, 6950) with complete success, using atiwinflash no less. It's 100% reliable because it removes any non-15kHz mode from the card's BIOS. Any problems will be on the windows end, so with crt-emudriver and EDID emulation you should be pretty right. Still ways to screw up if you really want to, but it's not easy. If you read that thread you linked, and search for your model card in the GroovyMAME subforum on ArcadeControls to flag up any issues, you should be right :)

EDIT: For Windows 10, to be extra safe, make sure to tick the "hide modes this monitor cannot display" box, and to stop and disable the AMD External Events Utility. Make sure you stop and disable, as those are two different settings. This is not related to Atom15 of course, just saying :)


Atom 15 does mean that UEFI BIOSes that want higher than 640x480 might give a black screen instead of the BIOS, while you wait for windows to load. I haven't actually used a computer new enough for it to happen to me.

That said, if you have a JPAC with the 15kHz protection enabled, you should be equally fine.

Jomac
6th March 2018, 02:42 AM
If that happens to the MS9 is it fixable or pretty much have to bin the chassis?

They can be repaired just as easily as the MS8-26 so more an inconvenience and unnecessary cost that can be avoided.

If you follow "Rat" and others experiences you should never have to worry about damaging any chassis.