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wilddazz
16th August 2006, 04:55 PM
will this ever be dumped as they say as would kill the need for any decent front ends once the rom was loaded as i saw this a an awesome point in a party situation!!!!!!

Viper
16th August 2006, 04:58 PM
they are mame

wilddazz
16th August 2006, 05:12 PM
No i mean the boards that are out there with the 39 in one 48 in one etc so when you load the 1 rom it stays loaded with the ability to choose from the supplied games not going back into bloody mame for a game!!! see my point load mame once click game once !!!!

The Pinny Parlour
16th August 2006, 05:30 PM
It may one day, but not likely ANY time soon.

They are illegal, bootlegs that are POS IMO.

Some of the XXX in 1's are just stripped versions of mame I have read.

Davefjedi
16th August 2006, 06:23 PM
i wish they would do a good dump of the namco classics

wilddazz
16th August 2006, 06:32 PM
Any thing would be great i recon

Viper
16th August 2006, 07:50 PM
No i mean the boards that are out there with the 39 in one 48 in one etc so when you load the 1 rom it stays loaded with the ability to choose from the supplied games not going back into bloody mame for a game!!! see my point load mame once click game once !!!!
I know what you are speaking of and they basically are MAME. They are an emulator runing ROMS (plural) and their own frontend! The difference being it's all solid state (ie. no PC).

wilddazz
16th August 2006, 08:19 PM
Ahhh i seee what u mean!!!now

Viper
16th August 2006, 08:35 PM
I'd still have one though! They just shouldn't be used by ops!

DevoDave
4th September 2006, 01:50 PM
I maintain a few 58 in 1's which use a ETX motherboard with an add-on daughterboard. (Called a Retro58).

The frontend on that is glorious compared to the 39 in 1's. Good thing is that the software is on a flash memory card, but the bad thing is that it's probably encrypted or needing a dongle.

elvis
4th September 2006, 02:38 PM
they are mame

Heck no they aren't!

People need to stop confusing "MAME" with "emulation".

I might own a "Ford", and that "Ford" is a "car", but that doesn't mean that every "car" I see on the road is therefor a "Ford".

This is called "Affirming the consequent", and is incorrect:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirming_the_consequent

I've posted elsewhere evidence as to why they aren't MAME. If I can be arsed digging it up, I'll link it here.

[edit] linky linky:
http://www.aussiearcade.com/showpost.php?p=25769&postcount=24

LOTR4U
4th September 2006, 06:34 PM
Heck no they aren't!

People need to stop confusing "MAME" with "emulation".

I might own a "Ford", and that "Ford" is a "car", but that doesn't mean that every "car" I see on the road is therefor a "Ford".

This is called "Affirming the consequent", and is incorrect:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirming_the_consequent

I've posted elsewhere evidence as to why they aren't MAME. If I can be arsed digging it up, I'll link it here.

[edit] linky linky:
http://www.aussiearcade.com/showpost.php?p=25769&postcount=24

Don't mix opinion with evidence, unless you know who manufactured what then you wouldn't have a clue WTF is on them shitty boards.

:badgrin

Viper
4th September 2006, 06:39 PM
Heck no they aren't!

People need to stop confusing "MAME" with "emulation".

I might own a "Ford", and that "Ford" is a "car", but that doesn't mean that every "car" I see on the road is therefor a "Ford".

This is called "Affirming the consequent", and is incorrect:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirming_the_consequent

I've posted elsewhere evidence as to why they aren't MAME. If I can be arsed digging it up, I'll link it here.

[edit] linky linky:
http://www.aussiearcade.com/showpost.php?p=25769&postcount=24
I was using it as a generic term. Being unsure what emulation knowledge wilddazz has, it is quite easy to understand what is meant when you use mame iinstead. See signature! :p

elvis
4th September 2006, 06:45 PM
Don't mix opinion with evidence, unless you know who manufactured what then you wouldn't have a clue WTF is on them shitty boards.

:badgrin

It doesn't take half a brain to realise these X-in-1 boards are using something other than MAME. If it was MAME, the manufacturing requirements would push the cost into the thousands of dollars, not hundreds of dollars.

"MAME" != "all emulation programs ever written". It's like Americans calling all photocopiers "Xerox machines" whether they were made by Xerox or not. There are literally hundreds of emulators out there, and you folk know that better than anyone.

I expected more from you lot, being quasi-technical folk and all.

LOTR4U
4th September 2006, 06:51 PM
Elvis,

Can you elaborate on how something like command line mame takes up so much resources? and how expensive it is for a high end computer these days? Also how small chips are how powerful they are?

Those 1000 x 1 board cough cough PC's I can't see why they wouldn't be able to run mame?

Help me understand my knowledgable friend. :D

elvis
4th September 2006, 07:17 PM
Command line has nothing to do with it. I can show you some command line software that will take a thousand years to run on a single CPU as it's designed for high-end clusters (I'm not kidding either). A GUI means nothing.

MAME is huge. Grab the source and look. It really is a bloated pig of a bastard piece of software. Highly modular, yes. Easily portable, sure. But bloated and fat none the less.

Likewise MAME emulates everything (well, drivers that are 100% do). Even if some CPU has some stupid wait state that makes it sit around doing nothing for a bit, MAME will emulate that. It tends to emulate a lot of crap that is unecessary, but technically correct.

The proof is in the pudding. Grab MAME and benchmark it. Now grab a random other emulator and benchmark it too. Compare Kawaks to MAME for CPS1 and CPS2 hardware and see Kawaks perform twice as fast under the same game on the same hardware. Likewise look at something like Vantage (http://www.mameworld.net/pc2jamma/vantage7.html). Full speed emulation on a 486!!! You'd be lucky to see a single frame drawn every second under MAME on that hardware, assuming it would even load to start with!

Likewise read my link above. People are struggling to port MAME to all manner of embedded systems. GP2X is running a 200MHz ARM processor and struggles with MAME even under the most basic games. The PSP is the same - 333MHz at it's fastest, and some games still frameskip like a bastard under MAME. Dreamcast MAME is pitiful, despite it's super powerful 200MHz Super-H SH4 processor with all manner of floating point grunt, it still crawls along tragically like me back in my uni days after a night on the turps.

The problem is not the processors, but the software. MAME was and always will be designed for cycle-for-cycle emulation, and not game-level simulation. The best examples are the 3D emulators like ZiNc that offload all the texture calc to your video card. Sure, they throw accuracy out the window. But you can all of a sudden play games like Tekken and Street Fighter EX on 1GHz hardware that needed 4GHz+ under MAME.

And again as per my other post, Z80 emulators grow on trees. I've got mates who wrote them as assignments in uni. For some Chinese software dev being paid $4 an hour, porting this to any hardware you can think of is a trivial matter. Writing your own would even be fairly easy, and it would be a shitload faster than MAME.

Beyond that, these 39-in-1 and 48-in-1 boards generate bugger-all heat. Touch one while they are running (remembering they are fanless) and they barely get luke-warm. They are certainly not running off x86 hardware. (The bigger hard-disk driven systems are however. But that's not the topic of this thread). I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if they even ran of real Z80 hardware with some sort of generic software layer that pulls the ROM info into RAM and runs it from there. To be honest, it would be cheaper to buy two $5 Z80 chips and do that then it would be to spend $300+ on an ARM or some other general-purpose processor and emulate a Z80. Think about it like a Chinese manufacturer would - cost is king!

For me the biggest piece of evidence is Gyruss.

http://www.mameworld.net/maws/romset/gyruss

It's got some hairy audio CPUs for it's rather revolutionary (well, it was at the time) stereo sound. MAME emulates this quite well. Compare it to these 39-in-1 boards where the sound is quite crunchy, and it's pretty damned obvious they've done some sort of hack to spit the sound out at a lower quality. To me that jumps right off the page and suggests that they've bypassed the normal Gyruss audio system and replaced it with some Z80 (or whatever) -driven piece of crap, as that's the hardware they have access to. MAME would sound a bloody hell of a lot better than that.

As I've said before - there's no doubt in my mind it's emulation, or failing that real hardware with some simulation software to prop it up. But it sure as hell ain't MAME. Not in a million years. That's not to say they haven't pinched MAME drivers and used them as reference to load the right bits of software. Heaps of alternative emulators do that - RAINE is a classic. They spend all their time re-writing "reference" MAME drivers as RAINE drivers. But the fact of the matter is the drivers are nothing more than a few lines of code that are more or less board blueprints for the core emulation software to figure out what loads from where. The guts of RAINE are a shitload faster than MAME, as are almost every other emulator on the planet.

MAME = big bloated fat bastard. Definitely not made for these little embedded projects.

StevOz
4th September 2006, 08:08 PM
Did someone say Gyruss (http://www.pinballnirvana.com/StevOz/files/gyruss.mp3)? :080:

The Pinny Parlour
4th September 2006, 08:45 PM
Command line has nothing to do with it. I can show you some command line software that will take a thousand years to run on a single CPU as it's designed for high-end clusters (I'm not kidding either). A GUI means nothing.

MAME is huge. Grab the source and look. It really is a bloated pig of a bastard piece of software. Highly modular, yes. Easily portable, sure. But bloated and fat none the less.

Likewise MAME emulates everything (well, drivers that are 100% do). Even if some CPU has some stupid wait state that makes it sit around doing nothing for a bit, MAME will emulate that. It tends to emulate a lot of crap that is unecessary, but technically correct.

The proof is in the pudding. Grab MAME and benchmark it. Now grab a random other emulator and benchmark it too. Compare Kawaks to MAME for CPS1 and CPS2 hardware and see Kawaks perform twice as fast under the same game on the same hardware. Likewise look at something like Vantage (http://www.mameworld.net/pc2jamma/vantage7.html). Full speed emulation on a 486!!! You'd be lucky to see a single frame drawn every second under MAME on that hardware, assuming it would even load to start with!

Likewise read my link above. People are struggling to port MAME to all manner of embedded systems. GP2X is running a 200MHz ARM processor and struggles with MAME even under the most basic games. The PSP is the same - 333MHz at it's fastest, and some games still frameskip like a bastard under MAME. Dreamcast MAME is pitiful, despite it's super powerful 200MHz Super-H SH4 processor with all manner of floating point grunt, it still crawls along tragically like me back in my uni days after a night on the turps.

The problem is not the processors, but the software. MAME was and always will be designed for cycle-for-cycle emulation, and not game-level simulation. The best examples are the 3D emulators like ZiNc that offload all the texture calc to your video card. Sure, they throw accuracy out the window. But you can all of a sudden play games like Tekken and Street Fighter EX on 1GHz hardware that needed 4GHz+ under MAME.

And again as per my other post, Z80 emulators grow on trees. I've got mates who wrote them as assignments in uni. For some Chinese software dev being paid $4 an hour, porting this to any hardware you can think of is a trivial matter. Writing your own would even be fairly easy, and it would be a shitload faster than MAME.

Beyond that, these 39-in-1 and 48-in-1 boards generate bugger-all heat. Touch one while they are running (remembering they are fanless) and they barely get luke-warm. They are certainly not running off x86 hardware. (The bigger hard-disk driven systems are however. But that's not the topic of this thread). I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if they even ran of real Z80 hardware with some sort of generic software layer that pulls the ROM info into RAM and runs it from there. To be honest, it would be cheaper to buy two $5 Z80 chips and do that then it would be to spend $300+ on an ARM or some other general-purpose processor and emulate a Z80. Think about it like a Chinese manufacturer would - cost is king!

For me the biggest piece of evidence is Gyruss.

http://www.mameworld.net/maws/romset/gyruss

It's got some hairy audio CPUs for it's rather revolutionary (well, it was at the time) stereo sound. MAME emulates this quite well. Compare it to these 39-in-1 boards where the sound is quite crunchy, and it's pretty damned obvious they've done some sort of hack to spit the sound out at a lower quality. To me that jumps right off the page and suggests that they've bypassed the normal Gyruss audio system and replaced it with some Z80 (or whatever) -driven piece of crap, as that's the hardware they have access to. MAME would sound a bloody hell of a lot better than that.

As I've said before - there's no doubt in my mind it's emulation, or failing that real hardware with some simulation software to prop it up. But it sure as hell ain't MAME. Not in a million years. That's not to say they haven't pinched MAME drivers and used them as reference to load the right bits of software. Heaps of alternative emulators do that - RAINE is a classic. They spend all their time re-writing "reference" MAME drivers as RAINE drivers. But the fact of the matter is the drivers are nothing more than a few lines of code that are more or less board blueprints for the core emulation software to figure out what loads from where. The guts of RAINE are a shitload faster than MAME, as are almost every other emulator on the planet.

MAME = big bloated fat bastard. Definitely not made for these little embedded projects.

Thanks for the education. :023:

Viper
4th September 2006, 10:16 PM
"MAME" != "all emulation programs ever written". It's like Americans calling all photocopiers "Xerox machines" whether they were made by Xerox or not. There are literally hundreds of emulators out there, and you folk know that better than anyone.

'tis the world we live in. Jet-Ski, Walkman, Champagne.....heard of them before.

elvis
5th September 2006, 06:14 AM
'tis the world we live in. Jet-Ski, Walkman, Champagne.....heard of them before.
I certainly have. And they are brand names I refuse to use incorrectly (Champagne particularly - I have a French mother who loves her sparkling white, and would give me a lecture every time I got the lable wrong as a kid).

I despise over-corporatisation at the best of times, particularly so when it comes to multinationals stamping their marketdroid-enhanced brandname crap on everything.

Stand against the tide if it is the right thing to do, and educate others to do the same. In this day and age wide-range communication is cheaper and faster than it ever has been, and the wealth of knowledge at our fingertips is greater than ever. Share the knowledge you have, search for the knowledge you don't, and demand others do the same.


***detatching soapbox***

Arcade King
6th September 2006, 06:05 PM
Back to sort of on topic.
Who cares if its mame or not its bootleg pirate rubbish.
People who buy these pcbs must be lazy as hell as maming a cab would be a much cheaper.

Savage
6th September 2006, 07:11 PM
Back to sort of on topic.
Who cares if its mame or not its bootleg pirate rubbish.
People who buy these pcbs must be lazy as hell as maming a cab would be a much cheaper.

Me,,,,
I wouldn't touch the xx in ones, but the idea of a 1000 in one, that can be upgraded (more roms) later for around $440 ready to go, is to me a lot better and easier than building a MAME computer..

elvis
6th September 2006, 07:42 PM
Back to sort of on topic.
Who cares if its mame or not its bootleg pirate rubbish.
People who buy these pcbs must be lazy as hell as maming a cab would be a much cheaper.
You know what... I just can't put my finger on it. But somewhere, deep down.. I get this really faint feeling that you don't like emulators or X-in-1 boards.

Call me crazy... but I just get that feeling somehow. No idea why.

Savage
6th September 2006, 07:53 PM
Yep, Trav's a if it aint the real thing it's nothing!
Mind you it's impressive on what he can do with arcade boards, with repairing them and modifying them!

elvis
6th September 2006, 08:02 PM
Who cares if its mame or not its bootleg pirate rubbish.

it's impressive on what he can do with arcade boards, with repairing them and modifying them!

So bootlegs boards are offlimits, but modifying hardware to run different code is OK?

Am I missing something?

[edit]
Before anyone gets cranky, yes I'm just trolling. No, I shouldn't. Yes, I'm a bad man. :p

Arcade King
6th September 2006, 08:16 PM
no just 10000 in 1 boards

Savage
6th September 2006, 08:21 PM
no just 10000 in 1 boards

I thought it would be the opposite, those xx in 1's suck due to crappy sound, inacurate colour etc....

But I guess you don;t like the 10000 in 1 (or is that 1000 in one) due to being a form of Mame emulation?

elvis
6th September 2006, 08:31 PM
no just 10000 in 1 boards
Seriously for a moment... what's your stance on bootleg boards? (As in, single game, hardware-clone bootleg boards)?

Arcade King
6th September 2006, 08:47 PM
Bootlegs as in copy boards are great specially for collectors.
Yes i can already hear you say hypocrite but I'm talking about individual hardware for individual games.
Some bootlegs are works of genius, some that come to mind are the popular Rally X boards and Gallag others are just chip for chip copies.
As for the legality of it all I'm no op so my games will never be put on site just like I should hope the XX in one boards will never be used for profit.
I love to hear the legal argument of the XX in 1s though as they are blatant rip offs sold in todays market.

As for what you said Scott I use Mame all the time while repairing boards, been a long time since I actually played anything on it I have no problems with it.
As i've said before each to their own weather it be PCB, MAME or gay XXX in 1s I voice my personal preference and so do you guys.

elvis
6th September 2006, 09:57 PM
As for the legality of it all I'm no op so my games will never be put on site just like I should hope the XX in one boards will never be used for profit.
I love to hear the legal argument of the XX in 1s though as they are blatant rip offs sold in todays market.

Two ways to look at it:

1) "The law is the law". If that's the case, you're talking copyright law. Bootlegs are just as illegal as X-in-1's, as they are copyright violations. Regardless whether you're an operator or not, or whether you sell them or not, they are against the law. Black and white.

2) "No harm no foul". Bootlegs and X-in-1's aren't "stealing profits". Copyright law was invented to give the owner of copyright a "fair go" insomuch as allowing them to actually get their product to market, sell it, and make a fair profit without someone else doing the same minus the hard work of getting the product out there. In the case of both bootlegs and X-in-1's, they are not (in this day and age at least) stealing anyone's profits. The original copyright holders of the material on these boards have long stopped making profits from the software. The only people making money now are the eBay leeches and these Asian bootleggers.

In all technicality, you can't support one type of bootlegging and criticise another. If you're going to use the logic of argument 1 (ie: current copyright law) you can't pick and choose where it applies and where it doesn't. If you're going to choose argument 2 to support your bootleg hardware, you again can't then go and choose which bootleg hardware it suits, and which it doesn't.

Me? I live by argument 2. Copyright law was invented to protect copyright holders and allow them to have a fair go in the market. X-in-1's and bootleg arcade boards equally are not stealing profits from anyone. Namco aren't making a cent from Galaga boards being sold new to operators, and that's what the copyright laws were there to protect. Copyright law as it stands is grossly outdated for the digital age. Copyright law in it's current form was designed around book reproduction and the printing press, in an era where copying data took time, money and effort. In this digital era, copying data is almost a non-event. It's merely mirroring a group of bits on a magnetic platter to look like another group of bits somewhere else on some other magnetic platter. Words like "theft" and "stealing" don't apply when you talk about making a perfect digital copy of something. The language itself isn't suited to the very law that's trying to protect this data, and shows just how woeful our legal system is in dealing with such an issue.

*IF* for some reason Namco started making brand spanking new Galaga boards and selling them first-hand to arcade operators, then Argument 2 is null and void of course. But that's not a trump card Namco can hold forever. the potential to re-release something is not re-releasing something, and telling the world that they must live without a particular piece of data because someone "owns" it and doesn't want anyone else to have it is not valid.

But as mentioned, it is logically incorrect to apply one rule to one instance of bootlegging, and a different rule to another. Pick an argument and stick with it.

Either you're cool with bootlegs, X-in-1's and MAME, or you aren't. Picking your approved and disapproved from the list means you're applying different rules to the same data set, which logic folk tell us is invalid. Mathematically speaking, a paradox.

Arcade King
6th September 2006, 10:02 PM
Seriously I cant be ****ed reading that dribble. You were just baiting me and i knew I'd be on the reciving end of another one of Dans :sleep rants.
I can,do and will have my own opinion thanks. :)
All i know is australia is the arcade bootleg capital of the world.

Savage
6th September 2006, 10:03 PM
Now I'm with ya, I was thinking of bootlegs as in XX games in one, not the bootlegs you were talking about...

I must admit, my preference is the boards, unfortunately my hip pocket tells me differently.. Although I still have originals...!

Arcade King
6th September 2006, 10:10 PM
Now I'm with ya, I was thinking of bootlegs as in XX games in one, not the bootlegs you were talking about...

I must admit, my preference is the boards, unfortunately my hip pocket tells me differently.. Although I still have originals...!

Mate if you want to go XX in 1 you wont cop no shit from me i only say it here to have a stir :)
Yeah seriously who cares. I've said in the past when i got my very first cocktail I was intending on MAMEing it until I got the screen fixed and fired the the original Namco Dig Dug PCB then that was it no going to emulation to me.
To be honest I hardly even play the games I mostly enjoy the tech side of things..I love to just fix stuff.
When you play the real deal you notice the difference big time from emulated and hardware not so much in the newer stuff but old school mostly in the sound dept.
I like to play the games exactly as how they were in the arcade with the real hardware. A lot of people getting into arcade wouldnt even know what Dig Dug was so playing it on the XX in 1s they would know the difference so its all good.

Edit: Just to make something perfectly clear because there seems to be some confusion, when i talk about original boards I'm talking about the original hardware which was in the machines in the day whether it be bootleg or not. MAME and XX in 1 boards emulate the original hardware which is what puts me off using them.People buy them because they are convenient nothing more.
Hope this makes things clearer

elvis
7th September 2006, 06:17 AM
Seriously I cant be ****ed reading that dribble. You were just baiting me and i knew I'd be on the reciving end of another one of Dans :sleep rants.
I can,do and will have my own opinion thanks. :)
All i know is australia is the arcade bootleg capital of the world.

By all means have your own opinion. I'm not arguing with that. My question is the logic you've used to arrive at that opinion. The end result is far less interesting than the path you chose to get there. I live for the journey, not the ending.

But if you can't be ****ed reading, that's cool. Not everyone's a born philosopher.

I look forward to the next time someone brings up MAME and Trav stamps the thread with the ":sleep" smiley face, and we do this dance again. This hasn't been the first time, and I have a funny feeling it won't be the last. :)

Davefjedi
7th September 2006, 07:16 AM
:evil :evil :evil :lol :lol :lol :evil :evil :evil :lol :lol :lol :badgrin :badgrin :badgrin
hee hee hee you guys make me LARF

elvis
7th September 2006, 07:30 AM
It's always a fun social experiment to see what happens when two opinionated and emotional bastards end up in the same room.

I'm REALLY looking forward to the Brisbane meet on the weekend. :evil

Davefjedi
7th September 2006, 08:32 AM
It's always a fun social experiment to see what happens when two opinionated and emotional bastards end up in the same room.

I'm REALLY looking forward to the Brisbane meet on the weekend. :evil

in the left of the yard weighing in at 140 Kg`s Travs dedicated TMNT cab compleate with origional everything except the hard crusty Hubba Bubba cola flavoured bubblegum stuck under the CP
in the right of the yard weighing in at 100 Kg`s elvis`s custom built all singing all dancing all prancing big dont **** with me or I`ll MAME your ass black betty

elvis
7th September 2006, 09:43 AM
in the left of the yard weighing in at 140 Kg`s Travs dedicated TMNT cab compleate with origional everything except the hard crusty Hubba Bubba cola flavoured bubblegum stuck under the CP
in the right of the yard weighing in at 100 Kg`s elvis`s custom built all singing all dancing all prancing big dont **** with me or I`ll MAME your ass black betty
HAHAHA! :046:

I've discovered over time that Trav and I argue so much because were are essentially the same sort of person. "Two sides to the same coin" as it were.

He is the laconic yin to my prolix yang, and we are forever doomed to chase each other in circles until the end of days. :)

But I still love him so. You're a champion, Trav. I honestly look forward to meeting you in person, and the discussions we will have way into the future. I just hope in the process I don't piss you off too much with my wordy ramble-fests. My chronic logorrhea is a documented problem.

Prof
7th September 2006, 04:52 PM
OK, my two bits.


Bootleg pcb's (ie gallag and what not) are still the based on the original hardware.

Multi games ad hacks on original hardware still use the original hardware

xx in 1's, are some sort of emulation running on a pc on a pcb trying to run the original code. Timimg, sound and controls are usually crappy.
(and you can get a 486dx120 + 64mb and some flash ram on a credit card!!! Run vantage on that :D )

Also, there is a 39 in 1 pcb at dreamworld on the goldcoast, plus a 9 in 1 at the Paridise Center

A decent mame pc can be had quite cheaply. I prefer the earlier versions of mame. After 37b13 (IIRC) is where the biggest slow down is. The earlier versions run 100% on a p166, and 350mhz + machines can be had very cheaply.

elvis
7th September 2006, 05:04 PM
Also, there is a 39 in 1 pcb at dreamworld on the goldcoast, plus a 9 in 1 at the Paridise Center
I haven't been in a Brissy arcade in the last 12 months that doesn't have an X-in-1 system sitting in the corner. Operators go nuts for them.

And regardless of quality, people play them. In fact, people play them LOTS. That has to say something to the companies that own the copyrights on these titles but don't do anything with them except let them rot.