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Stern, Spike and the furture of Pinball


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I know Marks video was posted in the Star Wars thread however after watching it myself I was pretty impressed with explanation of the joke that is Spike and how "Less is More" truly is "Less is Much Less".

 

 

Flame away fellahs but as far as I'm concerned these are not the commercial grade machines they once were and built more like toys.

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He made very valid points, clear and concise, perfect!

 

Replacement boards are fantastic - when they are $20 each, not $300!

 

I knew very little about Spike until Tony urged me to watch this video and quite frankly the unserviceability is scary, I won't bag SAM again!

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I knew very little about Spike until Tony urged me to watch this video and quite frankly the unserviceability is scary.

 

I only know details from my research and from numerous emails begging me to make replacement "node" boards. This won't be possible.

 

These machines will start to be scrapped WAY faster than any other machines in history IMO.

 

I said it elsewhere, unless Stern scrap SPIKE and get back to a serviceable machine, this could well spell the beginning of a very slow side for them.

 

It could be that someone will make a complete replacement electronics for these machines - it could actually be cheaper to replace ALL the electronics than to mess about with a couple of blown node boards.

 

There is a thread where a guy repairs a node board BUT that was only a single output FET - fair enough but anything more serious and it's new board time.

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I think that video could be separated into a couple of parts.

 

1.Spike itself. Advantages going into the future. Support of full colour animations, hd LCD screens etc.

 

2.Other cost cutting measures. Removal of lock downs, cabinet changes etc.

 

A modularised system makes sense from a manufacturing point of view. Surely it is easier for them to just use 2-3 screws for a board that powers 6-12 lights, and run a single cat5 cable back for power and control versus having to solder each individual light socket.

 

The flip side being those cost saving now result in higher maintenance costs in the long term for the eventual owner.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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I think that video could be separated into a couple of parts.

 

1.Spike itself. Advantages going into the future. Support of full colour animations, hd LCD screens etc.

 

2.Other cost cutting measures. Removal of lock downs, cabinet changes etc.

 

A modularised system makes sense from a manufacturing point of view. Surely it is easier for them to just use 2-3 screws for a board that powers 6-12 lights, and run a single cat5 cable back for power and control versus having to solder each individual light socket.

 

The flip side being those cost saving now result in higher maintenance costs in the long term for the eventual owner.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Further more to that and the most disgraceful is these cost cutting measures haven't been passed on to the customer and what was standard is now treated as a luxury!

I haven't actually sat down and thought about all the stuff that has been removed until now.

 

Transformer, light boards and individual sockets, wiring, lock down bar mech, even the headbox latch to name a few.

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Consumer electronics went this way 20 years ago. We went from $1000 TVs to $300 TVs - from $1000 CD players to $19 ones.

 

These items became disposable.

 

Nobody cares because the price fits the "disposability".

 

Enter Stern - doing the same thing in pinball but WITHOUT the disposable price tag.

 

Others will step up to the plate, TAG will retail in Australia for AU$6499 - a new Stern SPIKE game is $10K++, that is plainly ridiculous.

 

Other companies will follow with sensible prices and serviceability and other companies will get licences that appeal to a wider audience.

 

The corporates at Stern won't see this coming because they are only looking at the bottom line and making sure they satisfy investors. Big mistake IMO.

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Consumer electronics went this way 20 years ago. We went from $1000 TVs to $300 TVs - from $1000 CD players to $19 ones.

 

These items became disposable.

 

Nobody cares because the price fits the "disposability".

 

Enter Stern - doing the same thing in pinball but WITHOUT the disposable price tag.

 

Others will step up to the plate, TAG will retail in Australia for AU$6499 - a new Stern SPIKE game is $10K++, that is plainly ridiculous.

 

Other companies will follow with sensible prices and serviceability and other companies will get licences that appeal to a wider audience.

 

The corporates at Stern won't see this coming because they are only looking at the bottom line and making sure they satisfy investors. Big mistake IMO.

 

good point

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Will never own any newer Stern games.

SAM was it for me and there are plenty of back catalogue games to chose from.

Every title has had some issue.

Don't forget the SD card sound issues too.

Also the non existent quality control.

Mate had to work on his ASLE for 2 hours before he could play it.

 

 

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I have been hoping and waiting for an Iron Maiden to come out but after watching this video it has made me consider if I want to spend that sort of money on a Pinball when I cant even change a light easily down the track. I really didn't know anything about the spike system and have never owned a spike machine but now I am not sure that I want to own one.
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I have been hoping and waiting for an Iron Maiden to come out but after watching this video it has made me consider if I want to spend that sort of money on a Pinball when I cant even change a light easily down the track. I really didn't know anything about the spike system and have never owned a spike machine but now I am not sure that I want to own one.

 

Well at least you have the information to make an informed decision. This has gone well beyond the atypical Stern bashing.

 

In a nut shell they've used a system that was designed to be cheap and cut down for their K-Mart line of toy pinballs only to have some bright spark go hey we can use this in our mainstream line, save money and fleece the customer at the same time.

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It could be that someone will make a complete replacement electronics for these machines - it could actually be cheaper to replace ALL the electronics than to mess about with a couple of blown node boards.

Wouldn't these boards be protected by some design copyright? I guess it would be legitimate for someone to make a replacement board that is pin-compatible… A lot of work creating those though, and then the challenge of manufacturing them at a price that is substantially below Stern's price.

 

Michi.

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Well at least you have the information to make an informed decision. This has gone well beyond the atypical Stern bashing.

 

In a nut shell they've used a system that was designed to be cheap and cut down for their K-Mart line of toy pinballs only to have some bright spark go hey we can use this in our mainstream line, save money and fleece the customer at the same time.

 

I'm not tech savvy at all Travis. I understand the logistics behind this from a manufacturing point of view.

 

Question, did they go this way because a large proportions of todays machines are HUO and therefore don't need to stand up to the rigours of say the B/W era where they got the shit played out of them from day one on site.

 

Do they still need to be the "comercial grade" they once were. I'm really interested on those that are into the electronics to chime in.

 

To give you an idea, I can't really afford to buy NIB and with all the dramas of late I'm not sure i would anyway. I source great quality HUO games and they often have less that 400 plays. Now i feel like i play a lot. Let me use my LOTR as an example (yes i know it's not spike but bear with me) and i owned it for about 2 and 1/2 years.

Now i though i hammered this game but it still had less than 1000 games on it when i sold it. So transpose that onto Spike is this the sort of game numbers that will cause these games to fail or am i missinfg the point. So if i kept a game for 5 years it is not unrealistic to say i might have 2500-300 games Is everyone saying they are made even too cheap to sustain those sort of numbers??

 

I have a mate who used to operate and has one of his original TAF with 33000 Through the coin slots, (yes it's paid for itself!) games on it and with the obvious maintainance it still plays very nice.

 

Comments please.

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hey we can use this in our mainstream line, save money and fleece the customer at the same time.

 

I'm not sure it really works that way at Stern. I don't believe the guys at Stern are deliberately out to fleece the customer. If anything, they are ignorant, arrogant, complacent, and profit driven. But not evil, I suspect.

 

As a manufacturer in a high-wage country, controlling costs must be a huge issue for them. Anything that brings down the cost of making a machine is a huge win. So, they look after themselves first, and the customer second. The new lock mechanism is a good example. I believe it holds the lock-down bar just as securely and strongly as the old mechanism, so it's functional. But the fumbling around inside the machine to engage the latches is annoying to the customer. But Stern don't have to do the fumbling…

 

We have parallels to this in the car industry. I remember a time when companies such as Alfa Romeo and Fiat had shocking reputations for serviceability, reliability, and cost of spare parts. Eventually, customers took the consequences and bought something else, nearly driving those companies to the wall. But, for that mechanism to work, there must be something else to buy. As long as Stern have 90%+ of the market, things won't change, because there is no reason for them to change.

 

Michi.

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I'm not tech savvy at all Travis. I understand the logistics behind this from a manufacturing point of view.

 

Question, did they go this way because a large proportions of todays machines are HUO and therefore don't need to stand up to the rigours of say the B/W era where they got the shit played out of them from day one on site.

 

Do they still need to be the "comercial grade" they once were. I'm really interested on those that are into the electronics to chime in.

 

To give you an idea, I can't really afford to buy NIB and with all the dramas of late I'm not sure i would anyway. I source great quality HUO games and they often have less that 400 plays. Now i feel like i play a lot. Let me use my LOTR as an example (yes i know it's not spike but bear with me) and i owned it for about 2 and 1/2 years.

Now i though i hammered this game but it still had less than 1000 games on it when i sold it. So transpose that onto Spike is this the sort of game numbers that will cause these games to fail or am i missinfg the point. So if i kept a game for 5 years it is not unrealistic to say i might have 2500-300 games Is everyone saying they are made even too cheap to sustain those sort of numbers??

 

I have a mate who used to operate and has one of his original TAF with 33000 Through the coin slots, (yes it's paid for itself!) games on it and with the obvious maintainance it still plays very nice.

 

Comments please.

 

Before I could answer that mate I'd have to see the sales figures, is the home market really outstripping sales vs the traditional operator? Either way its my view that a machine should be serviceable at the very least and if Stern are going down this disposable path the replacement parts should be cheap. For some people maintaining a machine is half the fun.

When I look at that Spike a $30 Adriano or raspberry pi comes to mind, how reliable it is time will tell but some people aren't happy.

 

One thing I DO know for sure is 30 years from now those WPC's, System 11's and Whitestars will still be going strong.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

I'm not sure it really works that way at Stern. I don't believe the guys at Stern are deliberately out to fleece the customer. If anything, they are ignorant, arrogant, complacent, and profit driven. But not evil, I suspect.

 

As a manufacturer in a high-wage country, controlling costs must be a huge issue for them. Anything that brings down the cost of making a machine is a huge win. So, they look after themselves first, and the customer second. The new lock mechanism is a good example. I believe it holds the lock-down bar just as securely and strongly as the old mechanism, so it's functional. But the fumbling around inside the machine to engage the latches is annoying to the customer. But Stern don't have to do the fumbling…

 

We have parallels to this in the car industry. I remember a time when companies such as Alfa Romeo and Fiat had shocking reputations for serviceability, reliability, and cost of spare parts. Eventually, customers took the consequences and bought something else, nearly driving those companies to the wall. But, for that mechanism to work, there must be something else to buy. As long as Stern have 90%+ of the market, things won't change, because there is no reason for them to change.

 

Michi.

 

I don't think they are Evil Michi, they are just like any money grubbing company out to make a buck. I only put this video up in its own thread because it was informative and factual nothing else.

I know some people have cash to burn and care more about the title over everything else however there are people who want to buy their first new machine and should be given all the facts so they can make a informed decision.

I don't begrudge Stern for trying to save money however questions should be asked when so much "cutting" has been done which doesn't translate to savings for the customer.

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Before I could answer that mate I'd have to see the sales figures, is the home market really outstripping sales vs the traditional operator?

 

I seem to remember hearing a podcast recently where someone knowledgeable (Roger Sharpe, maybe?) said that 50% of sales in the US are for home use. It's probably different here though. More HUO than commercial operators?

 

One thing I DO know for sure is 30 years from now those WPC's, System 11's and Whitestars will still be going strong.

 

Yes. Partly because they were built like tanks, and partly because they are simple in the same way that cars were simple forty years ago: with a handful of mostly common tools and some knowledge, there was almost nothing that I couldn't fix myself. Today, I wouldn't dare putting a wrench to the engine of my car…

 

Michi.

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I don't think they are Evil Michi, they are just like any money grubbing company out to make a buck. I only put this video up in its own thread because it was informative and factual nothing else.

I didn't mean to give the impression that I disagreed with you linking the video. On the contrary, I think it's an informative video that people should take into consideration.

 

I know some people have cash to burn and care more about the title over everything else however there are people who want to buy their first new machine and should be given all the facts so they can make a informed decision.

Exactly.

 

I don't begrudge Stern for trying to save money however questions should be asked when so much "cutting" has been done which doesn't translate to savings for the customer.

There is no economic incentive for Stern to generate savings for the customer, so they don't. I think it really is as simple as that.

 

Do I agree with what Stern are doing? Heck, no, I don't. Each year, people pay more for less of a machine. No-one who enjoys pinball likes that. But all the shouting in forums around the world, or mobilising the press (as if it would care), or any other kind of activism is going to change Stern's mind. What will change their mind, however, is Spooky and JJP and American Pinball and Homepin eating into their market share.

 

Michi.

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Yes. Partly because they were built like tanks, and partly because they are simple in the same way that cars were simple forty years ago: with a handful of mostly common tools and some knowledge, there was almost nothing that I couldn't fix myself. Today, I wouldn't dare putting a wrench to the engine of my car…

 

Michi.

 

You forgot to say "and still great and challenging to play".

The early 90's games may have been simple technically but even now they are still the benchmark in quality and gameplay. Just like games prior to the DMD era LCD's,sampled sound and fancy light shows don't "make" a pinball great.

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The early 90's games may have been simple technically but even now they are still the benchmark in quality and gameplay. Just like games prior to the DMD era LCD's,sampled sound and fancy light shows don't "make" a pinball great.

 

I agree. There are few modern machines that capture my attention in the same way as some of the nineties titles. The Addams Family, Cirqus Voltaire, Indiana Jones, Creature from the Black Lagoon, Medieval Madness, and many others.

 

Looking at titles from the 2000s, I do find a few that I like: Family Guy, Tron, Pirates of the Caribbean, Batman Dark Knight, The Walking Dead, Metallica, Star Trek. But my list of favourites from the 90s and prior is much longer. Probably because there were more manufacturers back then, who kept each other on their toes, and because a simple and well-executed playfield and rule set tend to win out over big light shows and the like.

 

An analogy: many movies on my list of "must see again before I die" are old. Not because I'm an old fart, but because the more limited technology back then forced writers and directors to create a more compelling story. Today, so many movies have jaw-dropping sound and CGI, but no substance. It seems similar to me with developments in pinball. (That's why TNA seems such a breath of fresh air to me.)

 

Michi.

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Wouldn't these boards be protected by some design copyright? I guess it would be legitimate for someone to make a replacement board that is pin-compatible… A lot of work creating those though, and then the challenge of manufacturing them at a price that is substantially below Stern's price.

 

Michi.

 

I mean a kit of boards that 100% replaces ALL the original SPIKE system, node boards and all, with something that is repairable.

 

As Mark correctly points out in his video, there is simply no need for miniaturization at this level in a pinball machine - none at all.

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As Mark correctly points out in his video, there is simply no need for miniaturization at this level in a pinball machine - none at all.

 

That's an interesting point. There is plenty of room inside a pinball machine, so why go with SMD boards?

 

Could it be that most board fabs are geared up to do SMD and that through-hole mounting would cost more to make?

 

Michi.

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You forgot to say "and still great and challenging to play".

The early 90's games may have been simple technically but even now they are still the benchmark in quality and gameplay. Just like games prior to the DMD era LCD's,sampled sound and fancy light shows don't "make" a pinball great.

 

Agree 100% they were and are still great games. I also think that the modern buch are also great. I was a little nervous deciding to buy GOTLE but the theme was one my wife loved and liked. It turns out we love the game play and to date no issues at all.

Hardly have to lift the bonet unless fitting anpother mod (sorry trav) It seems well built and i hope it was built to last.

 

In the Operator/HUO thing i was talking to Bruce yearts ago and it was as high as 75% from memory HUO. Not sure if that figure was across the board or just the LE market.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

I mean a kit of boards that 100% replaces ALL the original SPIKE system, node boards and all, with something that is repairable.

 

As Mark correctly points out in his video, there is simply no need for miniaturization at this level in a pinball machine - none at all.

 

Thanks for chiming in Mike. Can i ask as you know way more than me on this. Surely though if a board fails isn't it as simple as swapping out the bad board. I get that they may not be reapirable but still replaceable. Or are you saying they won't be availabe as in Stern will just drop having spares on hand to force us into a new machine.

Just trying to understand more here from an electronics point of view.

 

I understand the need to produce cheaper from a business point of view but why go to the possibility of reliability issues. Surely they would know this or am i happy in my ignorance that Stern (or anybody else) will look after their product/my game long term.

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Hardly have to lift the bonet unless fitting anpother mod (sorry trav) It seems well built and i hope it was built to last.

 

That's fantastic mate, I hope it continues to to be trouble free for you.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

Agree 100% they were and are still great games. I also think that the modern buch are also great. I was a little nervous deciding to buy GOTLE but the theme was one my wife loved and liked. It turns out we love the game play and to date no issues at all.

Hardly have to lift the bonet unless fitting anpother mod (sorry trav) It seems well built and i hope it was built to last.

 

In the Operator/HUO thing i was talking to Bruce yearts ago and it was as high as 75% from memory HUO. Not sure if that figure was across the board or just the LE market.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

 

 

Thanks for chiming in Mike. Can i ask as you know way more than me on this. Surely though if a board fails isn't it as simple as swapping out the bad board. I get that they may not be reapirable but still replaceable. Or are you saying they won't be availabe as in Stern will just drop having spares on hand to force us into a new machine.

Just trying to understand more here from an electronics point of view.

 

I understand the need to produce cheaper from a business point of view but why go to the possibility of reliability issues. Surely they would know this or am i happy in my ignorance that Stern (or anybody else) will look after their product/my game long term.

 

He just means a 3rd party manufacturer like Rotten Dog making replacement boards down the track.

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