onetaste Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 Can TDs comment on the following scenario. I played in a tournament tonight, walked up to a machine, 3rd player in a group of 3 in match play. 1st ball I gave the machine a normal nudge as it hit the outlane post, the kind of nudge that would normally not even register a tilt warning, and the machine slam tilted, wiping everyone's scores. I got the tech to open the machine and the slam mechanism was floating way out from the door swinging around. The TD ruled I was DQ'd for the game. I didn't agree, arguing it was a catastrophic malfunction and in the end the TD agreed and we replayed the game, 3 players starting from scratch because we didn't know the scores. What is the correct ruling here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dedrok Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 This shits me the rulings on this. Most of the time the player is disqualified. Especially SS machines. No use checking the coin door slam when it's mostly the under play field slam switch. If someone intentionally slams a machine then fine. But when it doesn't even tilt but slams from normal play as in a slap save or nudge, then it shouldn't be a penalty Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauloz Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 Yea but every time it happens, the player swears he didn't nudge it that hard. I guess that if everyone is happy to start again then that's fine until the player who was miles in front suddenly finds himself or herself knocked out and that's not fair either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michi Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 Catastrophic malfunction is the correct ruling, as is replaying the game. See section 5 here: https://www.ifpapinball.com/menu/rules/ Michi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onetaste Posted March 28, 2017 Author Share Posted March 28, 2017 Ruling on slam tilt Catastrophic malfunction is the correct ruling, as is replaying the game. See section 5 here: https://www.ifpapinball.com/menu/rules/ Michi. Thanks, Michi. I looked deeper into it and s5 refers to s9, Player Errors, in the case of slam tilts and the rule is: "Any player who slam tilts a machine, thereby ending play for all players, will receive a score of zero for that game. The slam tilt is treated as a catastrophic malfunction for any other player(s) who have not completed their game(s) in progress. If a tournament official rules that the slam tilt sensor is not functioning properly, the slam tilt will be treated as a catastrophic malfunction for all players." Regarding what to do next section 5 on Catastrophic Failures: "When a catastrophic malfunction occurs, if the scores are able to be recorded, players will be provided the appropriate number of additional ball(s) of play on a new game once the machine has been repaired. If the scores are not retrievable, players will be forced to start their game over. No attempt will be made to estimate scores, or reestablish state, at any time." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michi Posted March 28, 2017 Share Posted March 28, 2017 Thanks, Michi. I looked deeper into it and s5 refers to s9, Player Errors, in the case of slam tilts and the rule is: "Any player who slam tilts a machine, thereby ending play for all players, will receive a score of zero for that game. The slam tilt is treated as a catastrophic malfunction for any other player(s) who have not completed their game(s) in progress. If a tournament official rules that the slam tilt sensor is not functioning properly, the slam tilt will be treated as a catastrophic malfunction for all players." Right. According to @onetaste, the slam tilt wasn't caused by player action, and it was clearly established that the slam tilt switch was defective, which puts it into the catastrophic malfunction category. The initial decision by the TD was incorrect, in my opinion. Whether it's correct to question the TD on the ruling and to try and have it changed is a different matter. I guess it's OK to politely ask "shouldn't this be handled as a catastrophic malfunction because of so and so...?" But it's still dicey; it's not nice if rulings degenerate into long discussions or even arguments during a tournament. I try not to question TD rulings and take up the matter with the TD after the tournament finishes. (But I'm guilty of having questioned decisions in the past myself; I'm trying to better my ways…) Michi. - - - Updated - - - To follow up on this, a TD is completely at liberty to make up his/her own rules that have nothing to do with IFPA/PAPA rules, and can even choose to have rules that are in direct conflict with IFPA/PAPA rules. I would hope that the TD would apply whatever rules he/she chooses consistently, but those rules can be anything. And I don't believe that an IFPA-approved event is under any obligation to use IFPA/PAPA rules. It can use different rules and still qualify for IFPA points. In other words, the TD is god-like (just like the referee in most sports is). The referee's ruling is final, even if it's wrong. The IFPA/PAPA rules exist mainly so each and every TD does not have to make up rules from scratch. But it's necessary to be able to modify and adapt them, for example, for tournaments on location where it is not possible to open up a machine to free a stuck ball and the like. Michi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onetaste Posted March 28, 2017 Author Share Posted March 28, 2017 Right. According to @onetaste I try not to question TD rulings and take up the matter with the TD after the tournament finishes. (But I'm guilty of having questioned decisions in the past myself; I'm trying to better my ways…) Michi. You are absolutely right. I had a shot at winning the tournament (I ended up coming 2nd) so I didn't want to get 1 point instead of 7, it would have wiped out my chances, that is why I pressed it. However, given the way my pressing the ruling generated controversy afterward , in future I might still query a ruling I think is wrong but not press it. If it is a 20+ pt tournament and I have a shot at winning I think I would still press a ruling that is against the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dedrok Posted March 29, 2017 Share Posted March 29, 2017 Always question a TDs decision as they sometimes can't remember every rules technicalities every time. Accept it if they are right, push your point if you think they are wrong. Paul oz Nothing sucks more than when you have an unbeatable 1st ball and then a slam tilt gets you disqualified from no fault of your own. A slam tilt switch is designed to end a game when - A kick or hit to the coin door from cracking the sads. - A game is lifted and dropped activating the playfield slam. - A board malfunction. Any other action such as nudging, slap saves and shaking the machines should activate the normal tilt mode via the plumb bob. Machines should all be checked accordingly before any tournament set up. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMacauley Posted March 29, 2017 Share Posted March 29, 2017 Just a bit more info re last night. I was the one who made the initial decision to DQ due to Cyclone slam tilting. The thing that complicated the whole DQ or replay decision was that this had happened earlier that round on the same machine to another player and I'd made the same call then. Looking back with the benefit of hindsight (and input) I should have dealt with the slam tilt switch sooner. Ended up replaying Greg's group's game plus (separately) the player from the earlier game in a single player game as players in that group wished to keep their earlier scores. Also for the record I'm not the TD I just help out with adjudication. That may or may not continue. I'll need to think about it a lot. I should have referred this to the TD in the first place. All in all a huge clusterf..k which I have to take most of the blame for. Just my 2c Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crafty Posted March 29, 2017 Share Posted March 29, 2017 Just a bit more info re last night. I was the one who made the initial decision to DQ due to Cyclone slam tilting. The thing that complicated the whole DQ or replay decision was that this had happened earlier that round on the same machine to another player and I'd made the same call then. Looking back with the benefit of hindsight (and input) I should have dealt with the slam tilt switch sooner. Ended up replaying Greg's group's game plus (separately) the player from the earlier game in a single player game as players in that group wished to keep their earlier scores. Also for the record I'm not the TD I just help out with adjudication. That may or may not continue. I'll need to think about it a lot. I should have referred this to the TD in the first place. All in all a huge clusterf..k which I have to take most of the blame for. Just my 2c Rob Don't take the blame Rob. We need people to keep being TD's adjudicator's etc, otherwise tournaments will not happen. I was not there so cannot comment more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Railways Posted March 29, 2017 Share Posted March 29, 2017 +1 to Mr. Crafty's thoughts Rob. Tournaments need all the volunteers they need instead of leaving it to the over worked few. Similar to other area's of pinball get togethers like expos, meets, local comps - they all need extra help. I say good on you for putting your hand up to help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinballcreature Posted March 29, 2017 Share Posted March 29, 2017 (edited) . Edited July 19, 2017 by pinballcreature Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dedrok Posted March 29, 2017 Share Posted March 29, 2017 Still , shoving a machine should tilt and not reset from a slam tilt. It could also be said that the first player mis used the machine by shoving it. There fore could be disqualified. Where as the same machine did it again but just from nudging. This could be questioned as slamming from nudging shouldn't really happen. If you are running and organising the tournament, that makes you td. I own machines where we had comps but no time to run them so others ended up the Td and took care of scoring. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMacauley Posted March 29, 2017 Share Posted March 29, 2017 Still , shoving a machine should tilt and not reset from a slam tilt. It could also be said that the first player mis used the machine by shoving it. There fore could be disqualified. Where as the same machine did it again but just from nudging. This could be questioned as slamming from nudging shouldn't really happen. If you are running and organising the tournament, that makes you td. I own machines where we had comps but no time to run them so others ended up the Td and took care of scoring. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Firstly I agree 100% That shoving shouldn't cause a slam tilt. One thing that is annoying the hell out of me is that during the first slam tilt I was sat not too far away (about 3 machines away), looked away at just the wrong time and looked back right as the reset was noticed. WORST TIMING EVER!!! :x Missed the second one as I was playing The Hobbit in a match at the time. Anyway that's probably all from me. As far as I'm concerned any input from more experienced tournament officials is greatly appreciated. I'm still learning as I go and trying not to screw up too often. :redface Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michi Posted March 29, 2017 Share Posted March 29, 2017 All in all a huge clusterf..k which I have to take most of the blame for. Don't beat yourself up over it. It's only a pinball tournament! It's not as if innocent people will go to prison for years if you make the wrong call. We live and learn. While we are leaning, we collectively make progress. Bad stuff tends to happen mostly when people decide that they don't want or need to learn any longer… Michi. - - - Updated - - - 5. After a lengthy discussion, which involved the machine being examined twice, the final decision was to replay the match and the player who was disqualified in the previous round replayed his game. Myself and the other players remembered our scores. The right outcome? Probably. To me, that sounds like the fairest decision you could have made in the circumstances. It's a tough call to adjudicate on something as finicky and temperamental as pinball machines that, in many cases, are old enough to be most of the competitors' parents :) (I have not yet encountered a pinball machine at a competition that was older than me. But it got close a few times. How time flies…) The best thing for anyone acting as a TD is to read the IFPA rules several times over, and to preferably have a copy on hand for quick reference. (Never having been a TD, that's easy to say for me, I know.) And it's probably a good idea for players to do just the same. Get the rules and read them. I did because I knew that, sooner or later, they would affect me, and I rather avoid making a mistake in the first place by knowing up front what to do and not to do. The more TDs and players are familiar with the rules, the fewer disagreements there will be, and the fewer incorrect decisions will be made. Michi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onetaste Posted March 29, 2017 Author Share Posted March 29, 2017 All in all a huge clusterf..k which I have to take most of the blame for. Rob Please don't beat yourself up, Rob, like Eddie pointed out, it is a huge rule book and there are so many possible scenarios that require interpretation that TDs and adjudicators can't be expected to remember it all. It is a team effort, trying to work this stuff out and get better at it together. I appreciated the way that you and Paul deliberated over the matter and reconsidered your decision and at the end of the day made the ruling that was spot on, exactly in line with the rules. You also had the balls to reverse the earlier adjudication for the other player. That is excellent adjudicating in my book. I apologise for pressing you on the matter (I don't want people to think I was yelling or swearing at you, I was just very persistent) but I appreciate that put you under some pressure and probably upset your subsequent game(s). We couldn't run tournaments if it wasn't for people like you and Paul stepping up and taking on the hard jobs. As for Paul, TD in 23 of 25 tournaments in SA is massive! You are hugely responsible for turning the scene in SA into what it is today. I would be running more tournaments at my place but I don't want to tread on the toes of Grant and Simon who are trying to make a go of it. I'm willing to take on running some of the ones you are doing, Paul, as are a couple of others. Then you can enjoy some tournaments as a player only. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pinballcreature Posted March 29, 2017 Share Posted March 29, 2017 (edited) . Edited July 19, 2017 by pinballcreature Quote fixed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamesrus Posted March 30, 2017 Share Posted March 30, 2017 Rob your assistance in the past and Tuesday night has and is very much appreciated, as Paul mentioned this was a difficult call to make considering the circumstances. But as it was discussed and dealt with straight away and outcome agreed upon. we all feel this was fair. I must thank You Rob for doing this sometimes tough job, But Paul, needs to be publicly thanked from Me and Amusement Worx, for the massive job he undertakes for all the tournaments he puts on, not only here but also Adelaide Pinball Hire ..Grants place..and if it wasn't for Paul the volunteers that step up to make this all happen just where would Pinball really be here in Adelaide, as far as tournaments go. Guessing only Balls of steel's ...Greg's place.. So Paul Rob Greg Wayne Amity Garry Andrew Michael Steve Peter Ian Hope I haven't missed any one THANK YOU ALL and lets continue enjoying this fine game called pinball at this higher level.:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LCM Posted March 30, 2017 Share Posted March 30, 2017 Kudos to the officials; it sounds like they handled this difficult situation with aplomb. Ideally, slam tilt switches should be disabled for tournament play, but I realise this isn't always practical or even possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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