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The Poor Man's DOF (Tactile Feedback)


RustyCardores

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If you like this Drunken Idea, be sure to check out my 'Virtual Pinball Toppers' at http://www.aussiearcade.com/showthread.php/83000-Virtual-Pinball-Topper

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***NEWS ALERT - December 2017***

 

We have changed our name to SSF (Surround Sound Feedback)

 

We are now on Facebook with our very own Surround Sound Feedback Group

 

 

***** JULY 2017 - NEW DEVELOPMENT!*****

 

Thanks to the efforts of DJRobX, Surround Sound is NOW AVAILABLE in VPX 10.4 Beta and some new tables have already been released to make use of this new feature, while other tables are being recoded by myself to make use of surround sound. **These recoded tables are being released at the table author's discretion, so please do not ask me for copies. Ask them and put the pressure on ;) lol ....It's important that table authors see the demand for surround coded tables.

 

VPX Surround is a game changer for PMD, as we will now be able to apply directional sound & feedback to any position on a table! I have been Beta testing this new development with my current PMD system and it is TOTALLY AMAZEBALLS!!!!

 

Those (like me) with a current "2 Amp - 4 Exciter" PMD system will be able to use this feature, provided that their sound card supports surround sound. New users yet to implement the system, may wish to consider using a single 7.1 surround sound amp or DJRobX's layout, in place of the additional subs required for PMD Mk1 (non-surround)

 

A visual representation of Surround config options...

 

PMD Mk1 (pre surround sound). Also Compatible with PMD Mk2 Surround Sound.

attachment.php?attachmentid=114430&d=1502148337

 

PMD Mk2 Surround Sound - Single Amp (expensive)

attachment.php?attachmentid=114431&d=1502148360

 

PMD Mk2 Surround Sound - Multiple Amps with Windows bass management to singular subwoofer (cheaper & can still utilise PMD Mk1 components)

attachment.php?attachmentid=115382&d=1503988784

 

**EXCITER PLACEMENT: Place them on the cab side wall close to the flipper/playfield level. Keep them about 15cm from the rigid corners of the cab. Too close and you may lose some of the vibes as the cab wall rigidity increases.

 

My links to the parts used. Please note that the Jaycar components listed here are also available in the USA....

 

2 x Lepy 838 Amps https://www.aliexpress.com and search "Lepy 838"

4 (5 if you want one under the lockdown) x 70mm Exciters https://www.jaycar.com.au/70mm-flat-panel-exciter-speaker/p/AS3039

1 x Subwoofer https://www.jaycar.com.au/4-paper-cone-woofer-midrange/p/CW2190 (or https://www.jaycar.com.au/5-paper-cone-woofer-midrange/p/CW2192 if you have space and a little more $)

Plus some speaker wire and a bit of timber to mount the audio sub (bracket it off the back of the cab or run it across from both sides... whatever works in your cab)

 

See also: http://vpuniverse.com/forums/topic/3232-new-vpx-feature-surround-sound-output/

 

So that's the current state of affairs with PMD. The diagrams above are self explanatory and thanks to these, we have found that users now have a much better understanding of PMD and the simplicity of the system.

 

I will continue to update the above section with new developments as they arise.

 

From this point on, you will be reading the development thread (contains installation images). Please note that early recommendations and results contained in this thread may no longer apply to the above PMD Mk2.

 

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ORIGINAL DEVELOPMENT THREAD CONTINUES.....

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*PLEASE NOTE: This thread covers the evolution of Poor Man's DOF (Sound Driven Tactile Feedback), please read to the end, as the PMD found there is far more advanced and effective that what you will find early in this thread.

 

Also, I will update this section with users's PMD reviews as they come in, rather than having you hunt for them through the thread....

 

1: 18mm High Density MDF - "Could be better. Too dense for really good vibe transmission. Exciter placement is critical." (Reported by @RustyCardores)

2: 16 or 18mm Pine (custom lockdown bar) - "Brilliant! Transmits every vibe from the smallest ball rolling to the loudest bumper. Hands on the actual vibe plate is extremely effective." (Reported by @RustyCardores)

3: Plywood (23 year old Judge Dredd) - "Excellent! JayCar Amp and Exciters mounted on side under flipper buttons." (Reported by @Jed)

4: Plywood (original F-14 cab with Dayton Exciters) - "WHAT AN EFFECT ! You can feel every bump, droptarget, kicker, and such, it's just great !" (Reported by @Nemo)

5: 16mm MDF - "I'm using a 16mm MDF CAB and and didn't expect much feel, but F#%cking amaze balls it feels real." (Reported by @DalasJ)

 

And for those of you who couldn't be stuffed reading this thread and just want to jump right in boots 'n all, here is my personal shopping list for the parts needed... (Most parts listed are from Jaycar Australia, but our international readers should easily be able to find matching products from local suppliers. Google is your friend!)

 

2 x Lepy 838 Amps https://www.aliexpress.com and search "Lepy 838"

4 (5 if you want one under the lockdown) x 70mm Exciters https://www.jaycar.com.au/70mm-flat-panel-exciter-speaker/p/AS3039

1 x Subwoofer https://www.jaycar.com.au/4-paper-cone-woofer-midrange/p/CW2190 (or https://www.jaycar.com.au/5-paper-cone-woofer-midrange/p/CW2192 if you have space and a little more $)

Plus some speaker wire and a bit of timber to mount the audio sub (bracket it off the back of the cab or run it across from both sides... whatever works in your cab)

 

Change from $200... how much will depend on what stuff you have laying around. I have heaps of RCA leads/splitters/speaker wire/timber from projects over the years and that has allowed me to keep things around the $150-160 mark.

 

*** PMD Scripts Mods (Table sound & balance tweaks to suit PMD configured pinCabs) are available at http://vpinball.com/VPBdownloads/categories/pmd-sound-driven-tactile-feedback/

 

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Original Post:

 

Doing an update on my vPinCab's tactile feedback today and thought some of you may like to see it.

 

Not having the $$$$ (or the will) to venture down the full on DOF route, I use a Boombox vibration sound driver mounted under my custom lockbar. Until today, I had one driver mounted in the middle, but I have now moved it to the side under my left hand and added a second Boombox under my right (used a 2x splitter on the TV audio out). This of course increases the amount of feedback that I feel.

 

Mechanical sounds have been separated from music/voice in VP's audio options and these are supplied the playfield TV and then on to the Boomboxes.

 

Boombox units (aka X-Vibe3) can be found online (China) for as little as $20 free delivery and they can be installed in less than a minute. If you have been wanting feedback, but are like me and $$$ or motivation has stopped you installing DOF, then I can recommend this method as a cheap & easy alternative.

 

It really is quite effective.... I feel every bump of the ball, I feel the flippers activate, hell I even feel the ball rolling on the table... and I don't think DOF even goes that far does it?

 

The only issue I see for some, is the sound itself. Boomboxes will turn anything into a speaker, but the sound will vary with the material used. Mine sounds great on a timber lockbar, but stainless may sound different. So I wouldn't rule out the need of laminating a bit of ply under the stainless to adjust the sound. #experiment

 

Cheers

 

Rusty

 

Boom1.thumb.jpg.fe082dd8aefaca50eb3096a43d847ece.jpg

Boom2.thumb.jpg.8e01f4818d524f9dd8a5ccc0f3a72f31.jpg

PMD-DIagram-3_DJRobX.thumb.jpg.a272cbd10be5e551cea93fbf6fad25a6.jpg

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I realise that, it would be a companion piece.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Aussie Arcade

 

You could certainly run it along side, but PMD does a pretty good shaker effect as is, so IMO it would only be worth it if you were setting up the extra board to run DOF LEDs anyway.

 

 

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You could certainly run it along side, but PMD does a pretty good shaker effect as is, so IMO it would only be worth it if you were setting up the extra board to run DOF LEDs anyway.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

My thoughts too. The tactile speakers do great impersonations of motor vibrations, activating toys etc already. I l like the idea of hacking controllers though, my first 'poor man's ipac' years ago for my first vpin build used an old pc gamepad hacked to arcade buttons. Love the idea of reusing stuff where possible.

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So read this thread Friday, after speaking to Chris from @ozistick, Jaycar yesterday, tonight OMFG.

 

I'm using a 16mm MDF CAB and and didn't expect much feel, but F#%cking amaze balls it feels real.

 

RUSTY this is amazing considering how real it feels.

 

Having a little problem getting my music again through the front speakers, but I'm sure I'll figure that out.

 

Gotta say I won't be bothering with under table mechanic using DOF.

 

PMD PMD PMD just do it!

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So read this thread Friday, after speaking to Chris from @ozistick, Jaycar yesterday, tonight OMFG.

 

I'm using a 16mm MDF CAB and and didn't expect much feel, but F#%cking amaze balls it feels real.

 

RUSTY this is amazing considering how real it feels.

 

Having a little problem getting my music again through the front speakers, but I'm sure I'll figure that out.

 

Gotta say I won't be bothering with under table mechanic using DOF.

 

PMD PMD PMD just do it!

 

There is a quirk in VP when it comes to music from the /Music folder.... Make sure that your regular/backbox speakers for music are the "Default" audio device in Windows. Then in VP's audio preferences, select that device as "Primary Sound Device" NOT the device's actual name.

 

Super stoked we have another happy PMD'er ;)

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Ah that might be it, I don't think I have set that in windows then. I was playing dirty harry and getting both music and table sounds via the exciters. I turned the music off to just test it.

 

I really gotta say I didn't think it'd actually work as well as it does. Even my wife asked how it works.

 

I'm just using 3 exciters, either flipper button and one at the back of my cabinet for base. A little super base HongXing amp and away it went.

 

Really good job Rusty and looking forwarded to the tuned tables.

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Looks like a trip to Jaycar for some exciters and a sub woofer is in order.

 

The amps for pincab 2 have just been delivered by the postie.

 

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170109/f9dd0a2f3ad9b93c788f527f821895dd.jpg

 

It's only using 2 amps, the third is to update the sub in pincab 1.

 

 

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OK, I finally got around to hooking up PMD to my testbench. It's basically an open frame with 2 shelves - PC, powerboard, cables etc on the bottom shelf and everything else on the top. I had a 200mm x 200mm of 6mm MDF in the top corner of each side panel to mount flipper buttons in and a 6mm MDF panel across the front that extends 200mm down with all the other buttons and a plunger mounted into it. It was done this way to leave it very open so it's easy to swap PCs and other components.

 

I replaced the 2 little side panels with 9mm Ply panels 300mm wide that go from the top right down to the bottom shelf. I have a flipper button and a MagnaSave button mounted in each with a Jaycar Exciter mounted onto the Ply panel directly below the buttons. the exciters are hooked up to a Lepy 838 Amp which then connects to the PC via a cheap-ass USB sound card.

 

All I can say is WOW! For a total outlay of $65 this is an astoundingly effective and satisfying mod. My setup needs some tweaking as the exciters sound a bit too drummy and hollow, which i think is to do with the ply resonating too much as it's only 9mm thick, along with the open nature of my test bench. Also, my main speakers are tiny, feeble internal speakers in my backglass monitor so the sound is about as unbalanced as you can get. But it's still SOOOOOOO good!!!

 

I'll do some tinkering and add a pic or two of my installation so it (hopefully) makes sense, so expect another post from me "soon".

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The Poor Man's DOF (Tactile Feedback)

 

OK, I finally got around to hooking up PMD to my testbench. It's basically an open frame with 2 shelves - PC, powerboard, cables etc on the bottom shelf and everything else on the top. I had a 200mm x 200mm of 6mm MDF in the top corner of each side panel to mount flipper buttons in and a 6mm MDF panel across the front that extends 200mm down with all the other buttons and a plunger mounted into it. It was done this way to leave it very open so it's easy to swap PCs and other components.

 

I replaced the 2 little side panels with 9mm Ply panels 300mm wide that go from the top right down to the bottom shelf. I have a flipper button and a MagnaSave button mounted in each with a Jaycar Exciter mounted onto the Ply panel directly below the buttons. the exciters are hooked up to a Lepy 838 Amp which then connects to the PC via a cheap-ass USB sound card.

 

All I can say is WOW! For a total outlay of $65 this is an astoundingly effective and satisfying mod. My setup needs some tweaking as the exciters sound a bit too drummy and hollow, which i think is to do with the ply resonating too much as it's only 9mm thick, along with the open nature of my test bench. Also, my main speakers are tiny, feeble internal speakers in my backglass monitor so the sound is about as unbalanced as you can get. But it's still SOOOOOOO good!!!

 

I'll do some tinkering and add a pic or two of my installation so it (hopefully) makes sense, so expect another post from me "soon".

 

Glad you are finding it effective. Sound results will vary with timber used and the size of that timber, not just in thickness but also in area.

 

Thankfully though, cabs are reasonably uniform in size and 16mm ply quite commonly used. So while there will always be variation, I think this can for the most part be overcome by adding the equaliser software that I linked above.

 

But back to the test bed.... with my cab, even adding the glass makes quite a difference, as it "completes the speaker box" and the sound becomes more natural.

 

Time for a full cab perhaps ?? ;)

 

 

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Hey Guys,

 

Just after some advice, I am currently in the design stage of a couple of mini virtual cabs for a friend and I. Looking at 27" inch playfields with 22" Backglass and a pin2dmd.

 

We are planning to implement PMD, I have ordered a couple of Lepy-838 amps, as the cabinets are small, and space is of a premium we are only looking at a "lite" version.

 

The actual sound in the system will come via 2 x 4" 2-way Speakers and a 8" Sub (running on a LP-168), we did this rather than PC speaker setup one again due to space, mostly in the back box.

 

Anyway my questings are;

 

Do you think we will benefit from a "sub" exciter, or should we just stick to a left\right exciter?

 

We were planning on 19mm ply for the build, will this still work nicely with the exciters or should we stick with 16mm?

 

Thanks,

Wob

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The Poor Man's DOF (Tactile Feedback)

 

Hey Guys,

 

Just after some advice, I am currently in the design stage of a couple of mini virtual cabs for a friend and I. Looking at 27" inch playfields with 22" Backglass and a pin2dmd.

 

We are planning to implement PMD, I have ordered a couple of Lepy-838 amps, as the cabinets are small, and space is of a premium we are only looking at a "lite" version.

 

The actual sound in the system will come via 2 x 4" 2-way Speakers and a 8" Sub (running on a LP-168), we did this rather than PC speaker setup one again due to space, mostly in the back box.

 

Anyway my questings are;

 

Do you think we will benefit from a "sub" exciter, or should we just stick to a left\right exciter?

 

We were planning on 19mm ply for the build, will this still work nicely with the exciters or should we stick with 16mm?

 

Thanks,

Wob

 

Check the list of reviews on page one of this thread, as there may be a user review of 19mm ply there?

 

With regard to the sub exciter, I personally think you need something down the back of the cab to help add balance to the sound. Without it the sound can appear to come from too far forward. The aim is to give the impression that the sound is coming from the table itself.

 

So you can run either a third exciter (in the middle of the backwall) off the amp's sub output, or my preference, run a small audio sub down there for a stronger base sound.

 

 

 

 

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Thanks for the reply, doesn't seem to be any mention of 19mm, might stick with 16mm just to be sure.

 

I will have the 8" Sound sub up the back, and as it's a mini cab not enough room for a second sub, so I think I will stick with a 3rd exciter on the backwall as you mention.

 

I'll report back when we get them running.

 

Thanks,

Wob

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Thanks for the reply, doesn't seem to be any mention of 19mm, might stick with 16mm just to be sure.

 

I will have the 8" Sound sub up the back, and as it's a mini cab not enough room for a second sub, so I think I will stick with a 3rd exciter on the backwall as you mention.

 

I'll report back when we get them running.

 

Thanks,

Wob

 

What about a 4 inch sub speaker like I listed? The raw speaker (no box) wouldn't take up much space. I'm thinking it could mount direct to the back wall just using spacers??

 

 

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WOOT!!!

 

I have finally worked out a way to play TWO SOUNDS at the same time, to TWO DIFFERENT audio devices, after being triggered by just a SINGLE EVENT.

 

So for example, the bumper sounds can come from the PMD tactile feedback, while ALSO coming from the regular sound system! This is going to be very useful me thinks ;)

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Hey Rusty hows the more bass style "thumping" with your setup?

 

I'll be putting everything together next weekend but one thing i'm not sure about is that real nice base bumper thump. I'm running Logi z623 as my normal audio output channel, so that already has it's own sub (2.1 thx), but i really want to feel that nice low bumper thump so not sure if i should be ordering more of a bass style exciter, or is what you mentioned above the reason for the excitement? eg having the bumper sound from the logi's, but the vibration from "any ol exciter" ;)

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The amps that I'm using have a separate sub outputs. The front amps feeds the two exciters under my flippers, plus an extra sub exciter that I have in the middle of my custom "timber" lockdown bar. This gives me bulk feel!

 

The rear amp feeds the two exciters on my cab's back wall, plus an extra "audio" sub mounted down the back in the middle of my cab. This gives me good balance between front to back (for sound direction), plus it gives me some extra audible bass.

 

Of course the above is "on top of" the speaker/sub system that is running the regular ROM sounds and music etc. The combination of all these (and the fact that I have volume controls very each component, so I can tweak the levels just right) means that nothing is left to be desired. ;)

 

* It should be noted (as I say in the user reviews on page 1 of this thread) that I am using a high density 18mm MDF and it is not the greatest for transmitting the vibes. Those using ply achieve vibes much easier it seems.

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sweet yeah im running the with same setup (the Lepy? amps) and got a few as they were so cheap! Planning to run front and back feedback (well, left/right, front/back). If the sound is too overwhelming with all that and the THX (i'm using 18mm? ply for the cab) then like you, at least i can tune the sound to suit. I guess my main uhhh "concern" was having some nice punchy bass vibes and sound from bumpers. Was a little worried maybe the smaller exciters might be a bit too buzzy? if that's the right word. I think my fears will be cleared up once it's all in the cab though, especially now where you've discovered sound splitting (as i could run some of those specific sounds via the logi's) - plus it also helps that a lot of the VPX tables have excellent mechanical sounds! Here's hoping that Tom's upcoming Ghostbusters table sounds like his Medieval Madness one!!
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Is anyone else having an issue with their PC not booting due to the USB Sound Card being connected? If I disconnect the sound card and then start up the PC it boots fine, however I then need to reconfigure all the sound stuff in Windows due to changing the hardware configuration!

 

After a bit of searching it seems that I might either have a BIOS conflict, where it can't work out what device to boot from, or that too much power is trying to be drawn from some/all USB devices.

 

I'm about to do some testing by plugging and unplugging USB devices then starting the PC to see whether either of these issues is actually the cause.

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I had a similar problem with my USB2 dock that lives under the side of my cab. I had to unplug it or my machine wouldn't boot properly.

 

I ended up sticking an internal USB3 card in and connected my dock to that. Because that card doesn't get loaded until after the BIOS boot, it bypassed the problem.

 

That said, my USB Soundcard is plugged into the mainboard's USB2 without issue.

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sweet yeah im running the with same setup (the Lepy? amps) and got a few as they were so cheap! Planning to run front and back feedback (well, left/right, front/back). If the sound is too overwhelming with all that and the THX (i'm using 18mm? ply for the cab) then like you, at least i can tune the sound to suit. I guess my main uhhh "concern" was having some nice punchy bass vibes and sound from bumpers. Was a little worried maybe the smaller exciters might be a bit too buzzy? if that's the right word. I think my fears will be cleared up once it's all in the cab though, especially now where you've discovered sound splitting (as i could run some of those specific sounds via the logi's) - plus it also helps that a lot of the VPX tables have excellent mechanical sounds! Here's hoping that Tom's upcoming Ghostbusters table sounds like his Medieval Madness one!!

 

The sound splitting could potentially allow for a "bare min PMD' setup for those that don't want to run the rear amp/exciters/audio sub, as having the sound still play from the backglass speakers caters for the front/back balance and "apparent direction".

 

That said, it would add to the scripting workload. I'm thinking that I will primarily use it just for the bumpers at this stage. I'm working on a table so will run some tests once the table authors have finalised the script.

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The sound splitting could potentially allow for a "bare min PMD' setup for those that don't want to run the rear amp/exciters/audio sub, as having the sound still play from the backglass speakers caters for the front/back balance and "apparent direction".

 

That said, it would add to the scripting workload. I'm thinking that I will primarily use it just for the bumpers at this stage. I'm working on a table so will run some tests once the table authors have finalised the script.

 

 

can the scripting cater for where bumpers are ? as not all bumpers are positioned at the rear of the table, some you would still want to have the sound/feel coming from the front half of the table. If you can control individual bumpers on a p/script basis then that would work. I did see in a table release update description recently, an author talked about special code to allow for people with 'two sound systems' and thought - cool, PMD is getting a little more mainstream :)

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can the scripting cater for where bumpers are ? as not all bumpers are positioned at the rear of the table, some you would still want to have the sound/feel coming from the front half of the table. If you can control individual bumpers on a p/script basis then that would work. I did see in a table release update description recently, an author talked about special code to allow for people with 'two sound systems' and thought - cool, PMD is getting a little more mainstream :)

 

Yeah... I almost got him in trouble with randr ;) lol It was good to see adjustments start to appear in scripts though. :)

 

Ultimately the "balance" of the volume between front and back PMD amps will control how far back the sound will appear to come from. The front to back feel will kinda be a constant, as you feel through the same place on the cab regardless.

 

The script can certainly cater for left-right positing of the devices, but the PMD amp balance that I mentioned is a "one setting for all" thing. That said, if you really want to get into the nitty-gritty of the script, then I guess you could vary the volumes of the devices (it's easy).... the further away devices a little quieter than what is closer to the front. But geez, I think you might be entering an "effort v's return" debate area here. I find that simply setting the balance creates the illusion of direction well and your mind fills in the blanks for those little directional changes when a device is a bit closer.

 

Oh... and of course the sound split to include the regular sound system can be applied for balance if needed.

 

With the table that I'm working on now, I plan to have all the PMD areas of the script highlighted, so when the PMD version is released it is easy for the end user to find the code and make the adjustments to suit their particular cab. So if "nitty-gritty" is what the end user wants, then it shouldn't take any longer than just a few minutes to adjust.

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Yeah... I almost got him in trouble with randr ;) lol It was good to see adjustments start to appear in scripts though. :)

 

Ultimately the "balance" of the volume between front and back PMD amps will control how far back the sound will appear to come from. The front to back feel will kinda be a constant, as you feel through the same place on the cab regardless.

 

The script can certainly cater for left-right positing of the devices, but the PMD amp balance that I mentioned is a "one setting for all" thing. That said, if you really want to get into the nitty-gritty of the script, then I guess you could vary the volumes of the devices (it's easy).... the further away devices a little quieter than what is closer to the front. But geez, I think you might be entering an "effort v's return" debate area here. I find that simply setting the balance creates the illusion of direction well and your mind fills in the blanks for those little directional changes when a device is a bit closer.

 

Oh... and of course the sound split to include the regular sound system can be applied for balance if needed.

 

With the table that I'm working on now, I plan to have all the PMD areas of the script highlighted, so when the PMD version is released it is easy for the end user to find the code and make the adjustments to suit their particular cab. So if "nitty-gritty" is what the end user wants, then it shouldn't take any longer than just a few minutes to adjust.

 

not me, i hate the nitty gritty! it's cool there is the works burger PMD for those that want to take it to the n'th degree, i know many here would appreciate that. i got into this system cause i found the DOF upkeep of both code and hardware a real headache, so i'm not about to start messing with code again... bad memories ;) but that's just personal preference and each to their own. just wondering about bumpers cause i started thinking about one of my favourite machines that has pops close to the flippers, IE Abra Ca Dabra ;)

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The Poor Man's DOF (Tactile Feedback)

 

I just pulled my cab apart for one of its regular dustings, so I grabbed a few pics of the PMD....

 

1d1841a94fcb293f0581f5bb4f5869bf.jpg

The amps.

 

600c7b7fade558d87e61ea57cb4e0e28.jpg

The rear 4 inch audio sub.

 

27a298911311640a52861027a0b7b4fd.jpg

The rear audio sub with the rear pucks on the back wall. (I got the pucks first, but I would use the same as the other exciters now)

 

161e2a68c91676de977346ba9032ea5e.jpg

Flipper exciter

 

4c3aec5cb0ba6dbdb460f139dfde281e.jpg

Flipper exciter

 

6e470a44c3047f2bf3067afd9a66ec21.jpg

Lockdown exciter on the amp's sub output.

 

EDIT: Before putting it back together, I screwed a piece of aluminium angle across the front of the sub woofer bar at the back. It was a little "BOING-ie" before and the angle has stiffened it up just nice. What still amazes me about this setup, is that the parts on their own are not all that impressive... like it's not like the little sub really THUMPS or anything... but when they are all dialled in together, it hard to imagine getting it any better. Sure you could put some high end gear in there and have theatre sound, but then it wouldn't sound like a pinnie anymore. ;)

Edited by RustyCardores
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