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The Poor Man's DOF (Tactile Feedback)


RustyCardores

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If you like this Drunken Idea, be sure to check out my 'Virtual Pinball Toppers' at http://www.aussiearcade.com/showthread.php/83000-Virtual-Pinball-Topper

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***NEWS ALERT - December 2017***

 

We have changed our name to SSF (Surround Sound Feedback)

 

We are now on Facebook with our very own Surround Sound Feedback Group

 

 

***** JULY 2017 - NEW DEVELOPMENT!*****

 

Thanks to the efforts of DJRobX, Surround Sound is NOW AVAILABLE in VPX 10.4 Beta and some new tables have already been released to make use of this new feature, while other tables are being recoded by myself to make use of surround sound. **These recoded tables are being released at the table author's discretion, so please do not ask me for copies. Ask them and put the pressure on ;) lol ....It's important that table authors see the demand for surround coded tables.

 

VPX Surround is a game changer for PMD, as we will now be able to apply directional sound & feedback to any position on a table! I have been Beta testing this new development with my current PMD system and it is TOTALLY AMAZEBALLS!!!!

 

Those (like me) with a current "2 Amp - 4 Exciter" PMD system will be able to use this feature, provided that their sound card supports surround sound. New users yet to implement the system, may wish to consider using a single 7.1 surround sound amp or DJRobX's layout, in place of the additional subs required for PMD Mk1 (non-surround)

 

A visual representation of Surround config options...

 

PMD Mk1 (pre surround sound). Also Compatible with PMD Mk2 Surround Sound.

attachment.php?attachmentid=114430&d=1502148337

 

PMD Mk2 Surround Sound - Single Amp (expensive)

attachment.php?attachmentid=114431&d=1502148360

 

PMD Mk2 Surround Sound - Multiple Amps with Windows bass management to singular subwoofer (cheaper & can still utilise PMD Mk1 components)

attachment.php?attachmentid=115382&d=1503988784

 

**EXCITER PLACEMENT: Place them on the cab side wall close to the flipper/playfield level. Keep them about 15cm from the rigid corners of the cab. Too close and you may lose some of the vibes as the cab wall rigidity increases.

 

My links to the parts used. Please note that the Jaycar components listed here are also available in the USA....

 

2 x Lepy 838 Amps https://www.aliexpress.com and search "Lepy 838"

4 (5 if you want one under the lockdown) x 70mm Exciters https://www.jaycar.com.au/70mm-flat-panel-exciter-speaker/p/AS3039

1 x Subwoofer https://www.jaycar.com.au/4-paper-cone-woofer-midrange/p/CW2190 (or https://www.jaycar.com.au/5-paper-cone-woofer-midrange/p/CW2192 if you have space and a little more $)

Plus some speaker wire and a bit of timber to mount the audio sub (bracket it off the back of the cab or run it across from both sides... whatever works in your cab)

 

See also: http://vpuniverse.com/forums/topic/3232-new-vpx-feature-surround-sound-output/

 

So that's the current state of affairs with PMD. The diagrams above are self explanatory and thanks to these, we have found that users now have a much better understanding of PMD and the simplicity of the system.

 

I will continue to update the above section with new developments as they arise.

 

From this point on, you will be reading the development thread (contains installation images). Please note that early recommendations and results contained in this thread may no longer apply to the above PMD Mk2.

 

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ORIGINAL DEVELOPMENT THREAD CONTINUES.....

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*PLEASE NOTE: This thread covers the evolution of Poor Man's DOF (Sound Driven Tactile Feedback), please read to the end, as the PMD found there is far more advanced and effective that what you will find early in this thread.

 

Also, I will update this section with users's PMD reviews as they come in, rather than having you hunt for them through the thread....

 

1: 18mm High Density MDF - "Could be better. Too dense for really good vibe transmission. Exciter placement is critical." (Reported by @RustyCardores)

2: 16 or 18mm Pine (custom lockdown bar) - "Brilliant! Transmits every vibe from the smallest ball rolling to the loudest bumper. Hands on the actual vibe plate is extremely effective." (Reported by @RustyCardores)

3: Plywood (23 year old Judge Dredd) - "Excellent! JayCar Amp and Exciters mounted on side under flipper buttons." (Reported by @Jed)

4: Plywood (original F-14 cab with Dayton Exciters) - "WHAT AN EFFECT ! You can feel every bump, droptarget, kicker, and such, it's just great !" (Reported by @Nemo)

5: 16mm MDF - "I'm using a 16mm MDF CAB and and didn't expect much feel, but F#%cking amaze balls it feels real." (Reported by @DalasJ)

 

And for those of you who couldn't be stuffed reading this thread and just want to jump right in boots 'n all, here is my personal shopping list for the parts needed... (Most parts listed are from Jaycar Australia, but our international readers should easily be able to find matching products from local suppliers. Google is your friend!)

 

2 x Lepy 838 Amps https://www.aliexpress.com and search "Lepy 838"

4 (5 if you want one under the lockdown) x 70mm Exciters https://www.jaycar.com.au/70mm-flat-panel-exciter-speaker/p/AS3039

1 x Subwoofer https://www.jaycar.com.au/4-paper-cone-woofer-midrange/p/CW2190 (or https://www.jaycar.com.au/5-paper-cone-woofer-midrange/p/CW2192 if you have space and a little more $)

Plus some speaker wire and a bit of timber to mount the audio sub (bracket it off the back of the cab or run it across from both sides... whatever works in your cab)

 

Change from $200... how much will depend on what stuff you have laying around. I have heaps of RCA leads/splitters/speaker wire/timber from projects over the years and that has allowed me to keep things around the $150-160 mark.

 

*** PMD Scripts Mods (Table sound & balance tweaks to suit PMD configured pinCabs) are available at http://vpinball.com/VPBdownloads/categories/pmd-sound-driven-tactile-feedback/

 

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Original Post:

 

Doing an update on my vPinCab's tactile feedback today and thought some of you may like to see it.

 

Not having the $$$$ (or the will) to venture down the full on DOF route, I use a Boombox vibration sound driver mounted under my custom lockbar. Until today, I had one driver mounted in the middle, but I have now moved it to the side under my left hand and added a second Boombox under my right (used a 2x splitter on the TV audio out). This of course increases the amount of feedback that I feel.

 

Mechanical sounds have been separated from music/voice in VP's audio options and these are supplied the playfield TV and then on to the Boomboxes.

 

Boombox units (aka X-Vibe3) can be found online (China) for as little as $20 free delivery and they can be installed in less than a minute. If you have been wanting feedback, but are like me and $$$ or motivation has stopped you installing DOF, then I can recommend this method as a cheap & easy alternative.

 

It really is quite effective.... I feel every bump of the ball, I feel the flippers activate, hell I even feel the ball rolling on the table... and I don't think DOF even goes that far does it?

 

The only issue I see for some, is the sound itself. Boomboxes will turn anything into a speaker, but the sound will vary with the material used. Mine sounds great on a timber lockbar, but stainless may sound different. So I wouldn't rule out the need of laminating a bit of ply under the stainless to adjust the sound. #experiment

 

Cheers

 

Rusty

 

Boom1.thumb.jpg.fe082dd8aefaca50eb3096a43d847ece.jpg

Boom2.thumb.jpg.8e01f4818d524f9dd8a5ccc0f3a72f31.jpg

PMD-DIagram-3_DJRobX.thumb.jpg.a272cbd10be5e551cea93fbf6fad25a6.jpg

Edited by RustyCardores
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See my VP prefs image further back up this thread.

 

The backglass specific Sound Device should be listed as "Primary Sound Driver"

 

This can be your onboard PC sound and in Window's sound options it should be set as your "default" (it is this that makes it your "primary" in VP prefs window)

 

PMD can stay connected your TV, as that should no longer be the default/primary audio device, once the PC's sound device has been set as the default. PMD is the "General Output Sound Device" as listed in VP's pref window. As you can see in the image, my PMD is connected via a USB Audio Device)

 

 

my wife always tells me ''why don''t you try reading the instructions ?" :D thanks, all is good now, music and everything is working correctly on AMH and Kiss. Might checkout that equaliser at some stage though the only thing i have felt i might want to adjust on some tables is thte ball rolling sound. but this time i will read the instructions ;)

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So JP's new Ghostbusters - the sound channels are reversed, doesn't seem to follow the same rules as other tables. I checked my other previos 'problem' tables like AMH and Kiss and they are fine. Any ideas on this one apart from having to manually swap the sound channels in VP settings ?
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So JP's new Ghostbusters - the sound channels are reversed, doesn't seem to follow the same rules as other tables. I checked my other previos 'problem' tables like AMH and Kiss and they are fine. Any ideas on this one apart from having to manually swap the sound channels in VP settings ?

 

I'm about to install it now. Will get back to you shortly. JP often puts the sounds within the VPX itself, so we should be able to "toggle" them in the sound manager.... but let me look.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

I'm about to install it now. Will get back to you shortly. JP often puts the sounds within the VPX itself, so we should be able to "toggle" them in the sound manager.... but let me look.

 

Yep JP has all the sounds in the table itself.

 

Open the table in the version of VP (or later) as recommended by JP.

 

Go to the Table menu and open Sound Manager

 

Here you will see all the sounds listed. Click on one and select Play. You should hear it come out the mechanicals.

 

Now go through the list and test one of each file that starts with a different prefix.... JP generally groups like sounds together using a prefix.

 

So for any sound that you want to send to the back speakers, look at it's prefix and it's a safe bet that you can send ALL sounds with that prefix to the back.

 

To do this click the first in the list, hold shift and click the last. Once highlighted, click 'Toggle BG Out'

 

Save the table, close & re-open.

Edited by RustyCardores
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Thanks, all good now. I really like the way you can control which amp/speakers to send what sound. Really gives a huge element of flexibility on audio and tactile.

 

 

Really enjoying Ghostbusters! Never played one IRL the callouts are great. Plays super. but the dmd code really needs updating... Thought this table was going to get the ultradmd treatment, can't use my pin2dmd. Still, very grateful for such an awesome custom build given spike isn't emulated. Love to see JP take on Game of Thrones next.

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I want it too !

 

Hi guys !

 

I've seen Rusty's post's over at vpforums and was reading a reply from him referring to his PMD setup....uhhh wat PMS ?? No, no, Poor Mans Dof ....ahhhh now he got my attention :D

 

I've been reading this topic with great interest and decided to jump right in ! Ordered a mini amp, an usb sound thingy and two nice Dayton audio exciters

Planning to mount them near my flipperbuttons, have an original F-14 cab, so made out of ply, this thing will be rocking !

 

Will be posting here and over at vpf with my results, but i think this is a GREAT idea !

 

750396377_DAexciter.jpg.adcc842074d51e3f0a815016436e3587.jpg

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Awesome Nemo, I look forward to hearing how it goes. ;)

 

I was thinking this morning, that enough people start adopting various versions of PMS ...er, I mean "PMD" ;) that I might have to start releasing PMD versions of tables (with the author's permissions of course) that have the required sounds toggled, the volume multipliers in place (tagged for easy adjustment to individual cabs) and any additional scripts needed for bumps etc.

 

One of the hardest parts for anybody not use to the code (and this was me just a few weeks ago) is determining what code needs to be adjusted and how. So if "commented out" instructions were above each line of code that effects PMD it should be a no-brainer for users to make their own final adjustments to cab & personal taste.

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Awesome Nemo, I look forward to hearing how it goes. ;)

 

I was thinking this morning, that enough people start adopting various versions of PMS ...er, I mean "PMD" ;) that I might have to start releasing PMD versions of tables (with the author's permissions of course) that have the required sounds toggled, the volume multipliers in place (tagged for easy adjustment to individual cabs) and any additional scripts needed for bumps etc.

 

One of the hardest parts for anybody not use to the code (and this was me just a few weeks ago) is determining what code needs to be adjusted and how. So if "commented out" instructions were above each line of code that effects PMD it should be a no-brainer for users to make their own final adjustments to cab & personal taste.

 

Good idea. when you have tactile speakers for your mechanical sounds you can really tell the difference in mechanicals from table to table and some do need adjusting.

 

CV for instance, the default flipperup sounds were really awful, and some slingshot sounds are way beefier than others, sometimes leading to a 50% punchier feel in the feedback. I'm quickly finding favourites for slings and pops. I've not adjusted anything in code so far, just imported the sounds i like to replace the ones I don't. I've had to go trhough all of my EM tables that use chimes, and send the chimes to the other amp - they are nuts on the exciters.

 

Cause I'm P-M-D (oi...oi...oi)

 

:)

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That's a great idea with modding the tables @RustyCardores - the best way to get more people interested in something like this is to make it easy for them!

 

To that end, are you interested in tables that have been modded/optimised so they play more accurately for their era? ie pop bumpers on EM tables that are "detuned" so they don't react like a modern jet bumper, slingshots that flick the ball rather than launching it with enough force to leave the Earth's atmosphere. I'm just concluding a mega update of VP9 and VP10 tables that I have tweaked in that manner (it takes forever!!) so I'd be happy to provide those to for you to do the PMD Mod.

 

One question though: if I was to use your modded tables on a setup that only has ONE sound output device, would all the sounds still work?

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That's a great idea with modding the tables @RustyCardores - the best way to get more people interested in something like this is to make it easy for them!

 

To that end, are you interested in tables that have been modded/optimised so they play more accurately for their era? ie pop bumpers on EM tables that are "detuned" so they don't react like a modern jet bumper, slingshots that flick the ball rather than launching it with enough force to leave the Earth's atmosphere. I'm just concluding a mega update of VP9 and VP10 tables that I have tweaked in that manner (it takes forever!!) so I'd be happy to provide those to for you to do the PMD Mod.

 

One question though: if I was to use your modded tables on a setup that only has ONE sound output device, would all the sounds still work?

 

To be honest, I think I would only be doing VPX tables to begin with, as I am a self confessed VPX Whore! and don't play anything else these days. ;) That said, I guess there is nothing to stop me working back through some VP9 stuff, as the sound code remains the same between the two versions I think.

 

With regard to physics mods, it would be my preference to go with the physics as authored. Physics mods are a very personal thing and some authors get a bit upset when their tables are modded and then made publicly available. They have no problem with final users adjusting things to their liking, but creating what are essentially "new versions" and putting them out there would upset too many apple carts IMHO. (ala 'Clark Kent' for example. The best of intentions and some great physics, but still he sets some author's fuses alight)

 

Re ONE sound device: They should work fine even with some of the sounds toggled to the BG device. Toggling effectively creates two groups of sounds "within the table only"... one that gets sent to the primary device and the other to the BG device. Where & what those sound devices are is set separately in the VP Sound Prefs, so if there is no secondary device for BG, both "groups" of sounds will be sent to the one available device by default.

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Today i got all parts in, so it was installation day :045: it went in quick, and did an even quicker testrun with only vp's audio setting changed.

 

:119: :wtf: :048: :badgrin are you f*cking kidding me ??? This is SOOOOOOO COOOOOOLLL !

 

That initial testrun turned into hours....... did nothing script wise, only playing one table after another........again, for hours........:114: now he came early this year :D

 

GREAT deal for only about €75,=

1795062402_pmd01.thumb.jpg.eaa1a6c393e40125079b8a48786037d2.jpg

 

2089779746_pmd02.thumb.jpg.b93b8250dd222359f5223398a1458790.jpg

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[ATTACH=CONFIG]102109[/ATTACH]

 

I do like the look of these exciters Nemo. The Dayton "pucks" that we have here are a little more effort to mount, as they require a recess (if mounted as per destructions)

 

These are very similar to our JayCar ones. Visually the only difference is a square mount as apposed to a circular. I tried finding them here in Oz just then, but had no luck, other than getting them from OS and copping ridiculous postage. So it looks like the JayCars are still the easy way to go downunder.

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Good to see another convert. PMD is catching on! Men's problems, it's that time of the month :)

 

 

 

For a quick off the shelf solution for anyone interested The digitech exciters from jaycar are awesome and $20 each is a steal.

 

Seriously... This system is better than DOF, way less hassle and expense, but most importantly the feedback is better, more realistic, and infinitely more tweakable.

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Good to see another convert. PMD is catching on! Men's problems, it's that time of the month :)

 

The exciters from jaycar are awesome and $20 each is a steal.

 

I'm going to go buy 2 more this morning and see how hey go replacing the x-vibes.

 

I won't have room for them under the lockdown (where the x-vibes are currently located) so I will try them under my flippers or to each side of my coin door at the front.

 

That would give me 2 pucks down the back of the cab for balance. 2 Jaycars at the front for main sound and 1 Jaycar (on the subwoofer amp) under the middle of my lockdown for big vibes.

 

If it's no better than what I already have, I can use them in the second cab that I am yet to PMD. So no $ wasted.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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The Poor Man's DOF (Tactile Feedback)

 

So I removed the X-Vibes today and added two Jaycar exciters under the flippers.

 

Being made of high density MDF my cab doesn't transmit much vibes, but the sound is good and I actually get plenty of vibes from the sub exciter under the lockdown.

 

Why did you do it then? I hear you ask... well, running everything off the one amp meant that a lot leads and splitters could be removed from the cab, so it's much much tidier.

 

... that and I like to fiddle :)

 

So my PMD system is now as I mentioned above, 1 amp, 2 Dayton pucks, 2 Jaycar exciters, 1 "sub" Jaycar exciter.

 

It feels and sounds awesome, but I would like to add the ability to "fade" the mechanicals towards the back a little, so I will be on the hunt for an amp with a separate sub output, plus a 4 speaker output with fader.

 

While I could just add a second $13 amp the same as I have to achieve the what I want, I would rather keep it tidy with just the one.... so I'm thinking a car audio head unit may do the job.

 

That said, it is bloody good the way it is, but I just want to explore all possibilities before making a final discussion as to what makes PMD the best it can be. ;)

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Edited by RustyCardores
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Update:

 

Well, yes as rusty remarks: there are sooooo much things you can adjust ! It's an extremely flexible setup, you can adjust/alter EVERY sound in vp,

you can play with audio equalization, pan & fade. Man this is in my opinion BETTER than DOF, as with this system you can have every sound you want

for your bumpers, slingshot's and what have you !

 

So i spend some time adjusting the audio levels in all my vpx tables, to be honest: i don't bother with vp9 anymore, it's all vpx baby !

Replaced some sounds with the ones that just sound better with exciters, it's all fairly simple and straightforward. Some adjustments were made in script

but for some i just exported the wav file and altered it to my likings, then imported it back in the soundmanager, easy !

I just LOVE how flexible and highly adjustable vp is, man you can customize it ALL, great stuff.

 

That said....... you know, my cab is NEVER going to be done, already saving up some cash for some INSANE BASS PUMPING power in my cab.....

 

Yup 2017 await's two of these puppies

BST-1.jpg.9131c2187922a5f13545617469836ad2.jpg

 

It's going to be insane......

Edited by Nemo
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On vpf ? Send me a link ;)

 

haha ...no, over on his own site vpinball. We had a little friendly banter and I suggested that we meet with our pins down by the wharf at midnight for a duel... something stupid like that. lol

 

He's not convinced that it could truly "replace" DOF, but is happy to concede that it could run in addition.

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Won't know without side by side testing. Sometimes people think the more expensive solution is always the best. Wars are lost like that...

 

PMD will never "match" DOF as there's nothing to drive the lighting events and the feedback is offered by each using completely different methods.

 

Sounds like the whole thing with RandR was a bit tongue in cheek but it's probably best to take the higher ground and refuse to fuel the "argument".

 

If you have $$$ to spend and want lots of flashy lights and noisy components then go with an all out DOF setup.

 

If you have a realistic budget, don't care for flashy lights and you're looking for a much simpler setup, then go with PMD.

 

IMO the biggiest issue here is coming up with a name for this which better suits what it does. PMD has negative connotations towards DOF that are clearly not intended.

 

To get the ball rolling I'll submit Rusty's Feedback System :cool:

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The Poor Man's DOF (Tactile Feedback)

 

Yes it was definitely tongue in cheek with randr, as I said above, it was "friendly banter".

 

While PMD will never do LEDs, there is nothing to stop a user running LEDs from DOF as well. What it comes down to is how much you want to spend on the "tactile" feedback and how much feedback the system actually gives you.

 

Having now played a cab with multiple solenoids (inc shaker) and my cab using my latest "exciter based" PMD, I will take PMD any day, as IMO it beats solenoids hands down and it does it at a fraction of the price! Plus it covers every single mechanical sound that the tables make, this is something that DOF will never do.

 

So to achieve the very best cab overall, I think the two systems could live in harmony. DOF looking after the LEDs/Blower and PMD looking after the tactile feedback.

 

I don't agree that the name 'Poor Man's DOF' has negative connotations towards DOF.... I just don't see that connection? Other than perhaps that DOF is simply too expensive for some users... but that's just a statement of fact and personal position of the user.

 

'Sound Driven Tactile Feedback' is what I have been calling it of late, as the name is self explanatory then. I think you will see PMD stick around as it's colloquial nic though.

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haha ...no, over on his own site vpinball. We had a little friendly banter and I suggested that we meet with our pins down by the wharf at midnight for a duel... something stupid like that. lol

 

He's not convinced that it could truly "replace" DOF, but is happy to concede that it could run in addition.

 

I've run both systems and I like the tactile feedback (PMD) better than DOF.

 

I found DOF time consuming and frustrating to setup - both the hardware install, wiring, soldering, then coding mods / table versioning needed. endless time spent.

 

DOF as Chris said is meant for a whole system, people who want the LED's, flashing lights, you know - extra cheese....curly fries..... I don't want that, i just wanted my vpin to feel like my real pinballs. Now it does!

 

What makes PMD better is the sound and feel is flat-out better than DOF. by MILES. With DOF, whatever solenoids/hitting bars you have chosen for your mechs is the sound and feedback you are stuck with for EVERY SINGLE table. they all sound and feel similar as they all the use the same solenoids and hitting bars. Feel means a lot in pinball, there is a heap of difference between a slingshot or pops on Ghostbusters than a slingshot or pops on Abra Ca Dabra.

 

PMD can be setup in less than 30 minutes and can cost you under $60 - and for me - (just my opinion...I'm not presenting this as fact... it is something you need to build yourself and try, you can't know otherwise!) - I think it a better system for tactile feedback. Because of the extra cheese that DOF caters for it will never replace DOF but for those wanting really excellent feedback feel for all table elements - including stuff that DOF can never emulate - like the subtle feel of a slight rubber bounce, or the muted thud of a ball dropping from a wire ramp onto the playfield... a motor starting up and spinning that actually feels like a motor starting up and spinning! it's PMD all the way.

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