Jump to content
Due to a large amount of spamers, accounts will now have to be approved by the Admins so please be patient. ×
  • 0
IGNORED

The Poor Man's DOF (Tactile Feedback)


RustyCardores

Question

***********************************************************************************************************************

If you like this Drunken Idea, be sure to check out my 'Virtual Pinball Toppers' at http://www.aussiearcade.com/showthread.php/83000-Virtual-Pinball-Topper

***********************************************************************************************************************

 

***NEWS ALERT - December 2017***

 

We have changed our name to SSF (Surround Sound Feedback)

 

We are now on Facebook with our very own Surround Sound Feedback Group

 

 

***** JULY 2017 - NEW DEVELOPMENT!*****

 

Thanks to the efforts of DJRobX, Surround Sound is NOW AVAILABLE in VPX 10.4 Beta and some new tables have already been released to make use of this new feature, while other tables are being recoded by myself to make use of surround sound. **These recoded tables are being released at the table author's discretion, so please do not ask me for copies. Ask them and put the pressure on ;) lol ....It's important that table authors see the demand for surround coded tables.

 

VPX Surround is a game changer for PMD, as we will now be able to apply directional sound & feedback to any position on a table! I have been Beta testing this new development with my current PMD system and it is TOTALLY AMAZEBALLS!!!!

 

Those (like me) with a current "2 Amp - 4 Exciter" PMD system will be able to use this feature, provided that their sound card supports surround sound. New users yet to implement the system, may wish to consider using a single 7.1 surround sound amp or DJRobX's layout, in place of the additional subs required for PMD Mk1 (non-surround)

 

A visual representation of Surround config options...

 

PMD Mk1 (pre surround sound). Also Compatible with PMD Mk2 Surround Sound.

attachment.php?attachmentid=114430&d=1502148337

 

PMD Mk2 Surround Sound - Single Amp (expensive)

attachment.php?attachmentid=114431&d=1502148360

 

PMD Mk2 Surround Sound - Multiple Amps with Windows bass management to singular subwoofer (cheaper & can still utilise PMD Mk1 components)

attachment.php?attachmentid=115382&d=1503988784

 

**EXCITER PLACEMENT: Place them on the cab side wall close to the flipper/playfield level. Keep them about 15cm from the rigid corners of the cab. Too close and you may lose some of the vibes as the cab wall rigidity increases.

 

My links to the parts used. Please note that the Jaycar components listed here are also available in the USA....

 

2 x Lepy 838 Amps https://www.aliexpress.com and search "Lepy 838"

4 (5 if you want one under the lockdown) x 70mm Exciters https://www.jaycar.com.au/70mm-flat-panel-exciter-speaker/p/AS3039

1 x Subwoofer https://www.jaycar.com.au/4-paper-cone-woofer-midrange/p/CW2190 (or https://www.jaycar.com.au/5-paper-cone-woofer-midrange/p/CW2192 if you have space and a little more $)

Plus some speaker wire and a bit of timber to mount the audio sub (bracket it off the back of the cab or run it across from both sides... whatever works in your cab)

 

See also: http://vpuniverse.com/forums/topic/3232-new-vpx-feature-surround-sound-output/

 

So that's the current state of affairs with PMD. The diagrams above are self explanatory and thanks to these, we have found that users now have a much better understanding of PMD and the simplicity of the system.

 

I will continue to update the above section with new developments as they arise.

 

From this point on, you will be reading the development thread (contains installation images). Please note that early recommendations and results contained in this thread may no longer apply to the above PMD Mk2.

 

______________________________________

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

*****************************************

ORIGINAL DEVELOPMENT THREAD CONTINUES.....

*****************************************

 

 

*PLEASE NOTE: This thread covers the evolution of Poor Man's DOF (Sound Driven Tactile Feedback), please read to the end, as the PMD found there is far more advanced and effective that what you will find early in this thread.

 

Also, I will update this section with users's PMD reviews as they come in, rather than having you hunt for them through the thread....

 

1: 18mm High Density MDF - "Could be better. Too dense for really good vibe transmission. Exciter placement is critical." (Reported by @RustyCardores)

2: 16 or 18mm Pine (custom lockdown bar) - "Brilliant! Transmits every vibe from the smallest ball rolling to the loudest bumper. Hands on the actual vibe plate is extremely effective." (Reported by @RustyCardores)

3: Plywood (23 year old Judge Dredd) - "Excellent! JayCar Amp and Exciters mounted on side under flipper buttons." (Reported by @Jed)

4: Plywood (original F-14 cab with Dayton Exciters) - "WHAT AN EFFECT ! You can feel every bump, droptarget, kicker, and such, it's just great !" (Reported by @Nemo)

5: 16mm MDF - "I'm using a 16mm MDF CAB and and didn't expect much feel, but F#%cking amaze balls it feels real." (Reported by @DalasJ)

 

And for those of you who couldn't be stuffed reading this thread and just want to jump right in boots 'n all, here is my personal shopping list for the parts needed... (Most parts listed are from Jaycar Australia, but our international readers should easily be able to find matching products from local suppliers. Google is your friend!)

 

2 x Lepy 838 Amps https://www.aliexpress.com and search "Lepy 838"

4 (5 if you want one under the lockdown) x 70mm Exciters https://www.jaycar.com.au/70mm-flat-panel-exciter-speaker/p/AS3039

1 x Subwoofer https://www.jaycar.com.au/4-paper-cone-woofer-midrange/p/CW2190 (or https://www.jaycar.com.au/5-paper-cone-woofer-midrange/p/CW2192 if you have space and a little more $)

Plus some speaker wire and a bit of timber to mount the audio sub (bracket it off the back of the cab or run it across from both sides... whatever works in your cab)

 

Change from $200... how much will depend on what stuff you have laying around. I have heaps of RCA leads/splitters/speaker wire/timber from projects over the years and that has allowed me to keep things around the $150-160 mark.

 

*** PMD Scripts Mods (Table sound & balance tweaks to suit PMD configured pinCabs) are available at http://vpinball.com/VPBdownloads/categories/pmd-sound-driven-tactile-feedback/

 

---------------------------------------------

Original Post:

 

Doing an update on my vPinCab's tactile feedback today and thought some of you may like to see it.

 

Not having the $$$$ (or the will) to venture down the full on DOF route, I use a Boombox vibration sound driver mounted under my custom lockbar. Until today, I had one driver mounted in the middle, but I have now moved it to the side under my left hand and added a second Boombox under my right (used a 2x splitter on the TV audio out). This of course increases the amount of feedback that I feel.

 

Mechanical sounds have been separated from music/voice in VP's audio options and these are supplied the playfield TV and then on to the Boomboxes.

 

Boombox units (aka X-Vibe3) can be found online (China) for as little as $20 free delivery and they can be installed in less than a minute. If you have been wanting feedback, but are like me and $$$ or motivation has stopped you installing DOF, then I can recommend this method as a cheap & easy alternative.

 

It really is quite effective.... I feel every bump of the ball, I feel the flippers activate, hell I even feel the ball rolling on the table... and I don't think DOF even goes that far does it?

 

The only issue I see for some, is the sound itself. Boomboxes will turn anything into a speaker, but the sound will vary with the material used. Mine sounds great on a timber lockbar, but stainless may sound different. So I wouldn't rule out the need of laminating a bit of ply under the stainless to adjust the sound. #experiment

 

Cheers

 

Rusty

 

Boom1.thumb.jpg.fe082dd8aefaca50eb3096a43d847ece.jpg

Boom2.thumb.jpg.8e01f4818d524f9dd8a5ccc0f3a72f31.jpg

PMD-DIagram-3_DJRobX.thumb.jpg.a272cbd10be5e551cea93fbf6fad25a6.jpg

Edited by RustyCardores
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Answers 491
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters For This Question

Top Posters For This Question

Posted Images

Recommended Posts

  • 0
BAM is a bit of an improvement, but still doesn't fix the flippers being woefully inconsistent!

 

I just reactivated Future Pinball to have another look.... OMG those flippers!! I think I'm about to play a shot to the left ramp, but I hit a right hand target..... I try the same shot again from seemingly the same position on the flipper and I make the left ramp. lol Plus those dead zones... sometimes, from a central position on the flipper, I only get 1/2 power (or less) than what I'm expecting.

 

Oh... and some of the tables that I thought looked AWESOME, now look quite "meh" after playing the new VPX versions of them.

 

OK so here's the call (yep I'm gunna say it) .... Don't bother! You really are better off putting your time towards setting up VPX tables.... or making your cab a Jukebox as well.... or adding Netflix streaming... or MAME .... ;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0

got a question

 

Do you think you will be able to connect a mini shaker + amp to LEdWiz ? trying to thin of a way to get it to work in Future Pinball.

Instead of using a solinoid to a ledwiz we connect it to a mini shaker + amp.

what do u guys think ?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0
got a question

 

Do you think you will be able to connect a mini shaker + amp to LEdWiz ? trying to thin of a way to get it to work in Future Pinball.

Instead of using a solinoid to a ledwiz we connect it to a mini shaker + amp.

what do u guys think ?

 

How does a Ledwiz work? I would assume it sends a small voltage to trip a relay that in turn provides full voltage to the solenoid? If so, I can't see this being of use to something normally fed by an audio signal? ...but then, I'm a photographer not an electronics engineer ;)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0
Ohh yeah got the amp

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161108/0c8f7821c8e71787c83beee33efb166b.jpg

 

Now to order the speakers

 

Sent from Mars

 

It must have been delivery day for amps ;)

 

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161108/c05d4d7ac413699cf2c16514136a3325.jpg

 

I'm expecting my tactile drivers to arrive tomorrow.

 

 

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0
It must have been delivery day for amps ;)

 

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161108/c05d4d7ac413699cf2c16514136a3325.jpg

 

I'm expecting my tactile drivers to arrive tomorrow.

 

 

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

What and Where you got your speakers from ?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0

 

Depending on how you plan to wire them, you may need the 16 ohm version. ie two in parallel on each channel.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0
Finally screwed the transducers into the sides of my cab last night, just under the flipper buttons. I can't believe what a difference having (even just The Poor Man's DOF) feedback makes. Flippers feel and sound perfect.

 

When you mounted the pucks did you recess them into the side as per the instructions, or just surface mount them with longer screws? Or just double sided tape them onto the side?

 

I'm going to mount mine today and cutting out a recess is a bit hard on a finished cab. I might head down to the car stereo shop and see if they have some spacers to size.... or just mount them with tape. That stuff is STRONG!!

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0

Never mind about my mounting question above. After playing with these for a bit, I realise that they must be recessed & hard mounted or mounted to a spacer to achieve the same effect.

 

These work differently to the X-Vibes. The X-Vibess can be taped direct to the surface and have the outer body move, where these pucks use an internal vibration. At this stage I will admit that I'm a little worried, but I must tell myself to wait until they are mounted correctly before making a call.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0
I just used longer screws. LOL. Originally thought about routing out a block of wood and fixing that to the cab, but seem fine to be as is. Looking forward to your feedback on the improvement if this was done.

 

I get the feeling (pun intended) that these are designed to have some flex in the round base that sit inside the hole. That flex/vibration is transmitted to the mount then.

 

At the moment, I considering running a board across the inside of my cab under my TV and mounting both near the middle.... one I will feed from the Sub output for the super low vibes and the other from the one of the channels. ???

 

That said, I'm still stopping at the car stereo place shortly to see if they have spacers. I want to try all possible setups before I decide.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0

Ok, so I am late to the party on this one but am looking at if I should go with the original suggestion in this thread but am wondering how best to secure them. I was thinking near each flipper button.

@Jed, I know information is late but, in Windows 7 and 10 I know for sure that you can set it to allow two audio outputs, so on my setup for example I have tested using both the back audio port and the headphone jack for other speakers. This will work without separating the table audio and music.

 

Sent from my SM-T805Y using Aussie Arcade mobile app

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0

Well at this stage, I have to say that I like my X-Vibes better.

 

I've tried these pucks mounted under my cab, on a cross bar under my playfield... I've tried running both on the subwoofer amp, both on the regular amp, one on the sub and one on the regular. The only thing I haven't tried is under my flippers... and I probably won't. All the positions so far actually gave me enough feel, but the sound was just nowhere near as good and I don't think that will change under the flippers.

 

The X-vibes mounted directly under my timber lockbar and backed up by a small sub in the back of my cab, just seems to provide that perfect combination of vibration and audio quality.... and securing the ex-vibes with just a little bit of double sided tape couldn't be easier! ;)

Edited by RustyCardores
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0

Update: I split the mount that I made and moved them to each side of the cab below my flippers.... well, I still much prefer my original x-vibes so I'm going back to them.

 

It could be that my cab is a high quality MDF and it's just too dense. So it may well be a different story for ply cabs.

 

My lockbar is a lightweight pine and that just happens to pass the sound and vibrations really well

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0

OK cab is back together with the X-Vibes and it's spot on. I guess I'll find a home for these drivers in my race sim seat.... ooooh another project! ;)

 

I'm interested to hear the feedback from others and how these drivers (and/or the X-Vibes) have worked out for you. It would be good if we could come to some conclusions like... "Great for 12mm ply, Good for 16mm ply, Not recommended for 18mm high density MDF, etc etc That would really help those looking to go down this path.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0
Ok, so I am late to the party on this one but am looking at if I should go with the original suggestion in this thread but am wondering how best to secure them. I was thinking near each flipper button.[/url]

 

If looking to use the X-Vibes, the driver heads are small and easy to locate up under the lockbar, as they simply attach with double sided tape. This is where I have mine and I think it makes sense to have have them directly vibrate the thing you are resting your hands on. But as I said way back, some experimenting is required with regard to their sound output ie a stainless steel lockbar will no doubt sound different to my pinewood one. Laminating a strip of pine under the stainless is something to be considered?

 

With my re-installation of the x-vibes after my failed puck experiment, I took the opportunity to tidy up my install. The driver heads are back in the same place, but rather than just leave the x-vibe bodies sit on my internal sub woofer box, I have attached them to the underside of the lockdown as well. This can be done easily with double sided tape or a dob of silicon. I can now just drop in my lockdown, open the coin door and plug in the wires for audio and power feed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0

Nice work @RustyCardores - it's always good when someone does a bit of comparison testing. I know it's something you were wanting to do as an upgrade anyway, but I reckon quite a few people will benefit from it!

 

Are you able to post up a few pics showing the wiring and connections of your X-Vibes? I'm still wanting to try this myself but due to other projects I'm working on right now I don't have the capacity to think it through for myself without important info leaking out of my ears and blowing away.........:rolleyes

 

Seriously, it'd be great to know exactly what you've done with your audio connections (ie splitter cables, amp with extra inputs or whatever) and where to get stuff from so I can just make a couple of no-brainer purchases and then know that it will work.

Edited by OzStick
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0
Nice work @rustyCardones [...]

 

Seriously, it'd be great to know exactly what you've done with your audio connections (ie splitter cables, amp with extra inputs or whatever) and where to get stuff from so I can just make a couple of no-brainer purchases and then know that it will work.

 

Me too, a howto thread for this would be great.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0

In VP's Audio preferences, split the sounds so that normal audio goes to your existing sound system and mechanical sounds go to your playfield TV (or any secondary audio device you care to use) **Note: to use the audio from your TV it must be connected via HDMI.

 

* At your TV's 'Audio Out' split the connection so that it can accept two 3.5mm audio leads. I have used a cheap splitter from JayCar.

PMDOF2.thumb.jpg.76f04a8f7edc287b714d530e8f2b75b6.jpg

 

* Feed one 3.5mm audio extension cable to near your X-Vibes and split the signal again using a second JayCar splitter. Plug-in the green 3.5mm audio lead from each X-Vibe to this adapter.

* Plug in each X-Vibe's green USB power lead to USB Power. (This you can draw from your computer, power board or even a phone charger with two USB plugs. I have used two extension leads from my computer)

* Using double sided tape. Mount the X-vibe bodies under your lockbar. Also using double sided tape (to replace the sticky pads supplied) place the X-Vibe drivers under each end of the lockdown bar (as close as possible to where your hands rest, but ensuring that they don't rub on anything)

PMDOF1.jpg.58ded152c5b2c35d64f7d514e16579e5.jpg

 

Thats' it, your x-Vibes are complete. **But please note: There is no volume control on your X-Vibes. There is no volume control on your TV's "pre-amp" audio out. Should you wish to adjust volume (I didn't because it was just right as is) use your TV's Headphone Out and set the volume via your TV. If your TV doesn't have a headphone out with volume control, you will need a secondary sound device that you can control on your computer. USB sound cards can be had for just a couple of dollars via aliexpress.com. These are simple Plug & Play and act as any normal audio device.

 

* Now to balance the sound (so that it doesn't sound like its all coming from the lockdown/flipper area only) I have added a small sub up the back of my cab. This sub is fed from the splitter on the TV pictured above.

PMDOF3.jpg.9ea07b51f4cbe8224afc9953e93c674f.jpg

 

This is just a small, cheap Logitech. It doesn't need to be much, as it's just handling a couple of "bump sounds". These do not need to be loud, but just enough to "balance" the sound and give the impression that sound is coming from a little further up the table. It also helps add a little feel which is a bonus. If you want to go with something more powerful then go for it, but you may find it will be overkill and not really "value for money". This sub was only $38 from JB. I have not used the satellites, as I find the X-vibes provide all the higher tones I need.

 

Also, this sub comes with a remote volume control box that I have mounted in reach of the coin door. This allows me to adjust the sub level, to get the "bump" balance right. The bass control on the sub itself I have left at maximum. Once volume/balance controls are set to your liking, they do not need to be touched again.

PMDOF4.thumb.jpg.2f297ea71608b9b61bc1972de3c81802.jpg

 

So that's my 'Poor Man's DOF' as currently configured. ;)

 

One more point to note: Any sounds that you DON'T want to come from the X-Vibes, can be toggled to come from your regular sound system. This you do in VP's 'Sound Manager' on a table by table / sound by sound basis. I've found that I only need to toggle a sound every now and then. Generally, the sounds assigned to "mechanicals" are set right by the table devs to begin with.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0

Thanks @RustyCardores for the great write up. Exactly what i was hoping for!

 

One thing of note from a previous post of yours was the type of material the X-Vibes are mounted to and their affect on the effect they offer. I reckon 2 small blocks piece of ply siliconed under the lockdown bar with each X-Vibe attached to them would be an interesting thing to try. You'd get some additional reverberation transmitted through the silicone that may create some extra feel as well as hopefully making the right type of sound.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 0
Thanks @RustyCardores for the great write up. Exactly what i was hoping for!

 

One thing of note from a previous post of yours was the type of material the X-Vibes are mounted to and their affect on the effect they offer. I reckon 2 small blocks piece of ply siliconed under the lockdown bar with each X-Vibe attached to them would be an interesting thing to try. You'd get some additional reverberation transmitted through the silicone that may create some extra feel as well as hopefully making the right type of sound.

 

Experimenting is the key, I'd be super interested in a method that works well on a stainless lockdown. I might have to try and score one from somewhere for me try some ideas.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...